North Wales Metro - Update?

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there capacity on the Liverpool loop for Borderline trains ?

The report says there is for a 60/30 minute service interval, but not for 20/15 minutes (ie not 3/4tph).
The report doesn't really address the possible 777 extension south of Bidston.
It does mention the possible need for 777 BEMU charging capability.
While Merseyrail may be interested in extending 777 operation down the Wirral, it's a stretch to imagine 777s at Wrexham Central.
Wrexham-Liverpool will always be faster via Chester/Hooton or Chester/Runcorn.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Is there capacity on the Liverpool loop for Borderline trains ?

Would a pacer count as a borderline train?

 

[Zomboid]

The report says there is for a 60/30 minute service interval, but not for 20/15 minutes (ie not 3/4tph).
The report doesn't really address the possible 777 extension south of Bidston.
It does mention the possible need for 777 BEMU charging capability.
While Merseyrail may be interested in extending 777 operation down the Wirral, it's a stretch to imagine 777s at Wrexham Central.
Wrexham-Liverpool will always be faster via Chester/Hooton or Chester/Runcorn.

How many stations towards Bidston does that hold true for?
I would imagine direct services from the likes of Buckley would be faster via a direct train.

 

[Brubulus]

The report says there is for a 60/30 minute service interval, but not for 20/15 minutes (ie not 3/4tph).
The report doesn't really address the possible 777 extension south of Bidston.
It does mention the possible need for 777 BEMU charging capability.
While Merseyrail may be interested in extending 777 operation down the Wirral, it's a stretch to imagine 777s at Wrexham Central.
Wrexham-Liverpool will always be faster via Chester/Hooton or Chester/Runcorn.

The difference is under 10 mins, it's realistically worth it to just run 777s to Wrexham Central every 30 mins. (1h4 mins Vs 1h13 mins)

 

[positron]

This seems like a lot of expense for limited benefit. The line can have 2tph most of the day without this spending, and if there was investment into the line, it should be for enabling 777 through running to Liverpool at 2tph most of the day, given that none of this spending seems to be directly towards enabling through running.

Its a pre-requesite for ever running a reliable timetable on that line, and freight may end up increasing too. So without this investment it's essentially in limbo, there's no real point investing in extending the 777s further south if there's such limited line capacity.

 

[kieron]

There's the recent issue of the level crossing at "Chirk" (actually at Weston Rhyn about a mile down the line in Shropshire), which is said to be a problem for higher frequency on the line (for the WSMR OA application).
I doubt that is covered by yesterday's announcement.

There's nothing about level crossings in that announcement, but a recent BBC article says Network Rail plan to change that one later this year. It says:

Network Rail described the crossing as "a hot spot for trespassing" and said it had recorded numerous incidents of people spending too long getting from one side to the other.

It plans to install a set of warning lights at the crossing in December.

There is a level crossing in Weston Rhyn (link), but the one Network Rail were concerned about is nearer to Chirk, with a footpath to Chirk Bank.

The NR study indicates a cost of £45m for the Padeswood layout changes, £39m for resignalling at Penyffordd, and another £71m for signalling enhancement on the line to improve headways.

I don't think that's what they meant. The two resignallings are shown as alternatives in the table on page 6 of NR's Congested Infrastructure Report. It shows the £39m scheme (with extra signals in Neston and Buckley) being sufficient for 2tph calling everywhere, but not useful for 4tph.

As the improvement for Padeswood allows 2tph if one train an hour skips some of the stations (which I think means Hope, Caergwrle and Cefn-y-bedd, although it's not specified in this report), I doubt anyone would fund the £39m scheme even if they gave up on 4tph.

 

[I'm here now]

https://railnews.mobi/news/2025/07/04-work-to-create-network-north.html

Work to modernise the Liverpool to Wrexham line is going ahead. Upgrades on the line at Padeswood have been confirmed as the first major step to run more trains.

Transport and North Wales secretary Ken Skates and Welsh secretary Jo Stevens visited the site yesterday.

The Westminster government promised to support the work at Padeswood as part of last month’s Comprehensive Spending Review with investment in Welsh railways which will be worth at least £445 million, and allow a start to be made on creating Network North Wales.

There should be two trains an hour between Liverpool and Wrexham within three years. Padeswood also serves the Heidelberg Materials’ cement works, and the upgrade will make it easier for freight trains to use the site.

Ken Skates said: ’Delivering the upgrade at Padeswood will bring real economic benefits, helping the cement works and improving connectivity between Wrexham and Liverpool, increasing services to two trains per hour.

‘Network North Wales is about an integrated, high-frequency public transport network. While Padeswood is predicted in the next three years, more immediate changes include 50 per cent more trains on the North Wales main line, more trains between Chester and Wrexham and the start of Pay as You Go.’

 

[tfw756rider]

New article now on RAIL magazine's website:

Transport for Wales submits plan for shuttle service in first part of North Wales network overhaul

(David Stubbings, 8 September 2025)

Plans for the first new services as part of Network North Wales have been submitted to the Office of Rail and Road.

Transport for Wales (TfW) and the Welsh Government unveiled plans to improve rail services in the north of the country back in May.

Part of the plans include an improved service between Wrexham and Chester. The current service between the two cities is mostly hourly as TfW Holyhead services alternate between Cardiff Central and Holyhead.

TfW wants to introduce an hourly Wrexham General-Chester shuttle to relieve “persistent overcrowding on trains between Shrewsbury and Chester”.

In its form to the regulator, TfW said: “The overcrowding is most acute between Wrexham and Chester: rail use to and from Wrexham is growing quickly and the recent successes of the Wrexham Football Club have helped fuel this growth.

“This new hourly service will help address this problem by doubling the frequency between these stations to two trains per hour which will provide additional journey opportunities for passengers and help to even out demand.”

TfW has requested up to 14 access rights on weekdays, 13 on Saturdays and eight on Sundays stating from Sunday December 14.

In the long run TfW wants to the services to reach Crewe by “joining them with the existing Crewe-Chester shuttle service, when future timetable changes allow”.

Services will be operated by a two-car Class 197.

Other ambitions included in Network North Wales are increased services on the Wrexham-Bidston line (with the aim of those services eventually running into Liverpool), pay as you go ticketing and finally electrifying at least parts of the North Wales Main Line.

"TfW Holyhead services alternate between Cardiff Central and Holyhead" looks to be a mistake?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

"TfW Holyhead services alternate between Cardiff Central and Holyhead" looks to be a mistake?

Indeed. I believe they alternate between Cardiff Central and Manchester.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Indeed. I believe they alternate between Cardiff Central and Manchester.

Birmingham mainly isnt it?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed. I believe they alternate between Cardiff Central and Manchester.

No, the Holyhead-Chester-Shrewsburys alternate between Cardiff and Birmingham International.
The Birmingham trains also work onto the Cambrian system, so currently are largely 158s, the Cardiffs are 197s (plus one Mk4 working).
There's one Chester-Runcorn-Liverpool (197) service which starts back from Shrewsbury in the morning peak, returning to Wrexham in the evening peak and then back to Liverpool.

The Crewe-Chester shuttle is tightly timed between the Avanti services, and an extension to Wrexham will have to negotiate the single track Rossett-Wrexham North Jn section, plus the reversal in the Watery Road loop at Wrexham which means navigating a very busy level crossing twice.
The obvious solution, also benefitting the daily Avanti service, would be to reverse in Wrexham General P1 but I've not seen any plans to deliver the necessary signalling.

 

[kieron]

The article says they would like the service to join with the Chester–Crewe shuttle when future timetable changes allow. I wonder what changes they would need to make.

At the moment, trains between Chester and Wrexham typically arrive and depart between x20 and x30 and ones between Chester and Crewe between x50 and x00. If the Chester–Wrexham line can accommodate it, extending the current Crewe shuttle would give roughly a train every half an hour. If not, an hourly timetable would leave quite a lot of slack.

 

[Russel]

With this and the Bristol proposals, where are TFW planning to find the spare 197s to work them, given what we've seen of fleet availability since their introduction...

I fully support improvements, but I can see TFW stretching their resources too thinly which will impact the wider network.

 

[tfw756rider]

With this and the Bristol proposals, where are TFW planning to find the spare 197s to work them, given what we've seen of fleet availability since their introduction...

I fully support improvements, but I can see TFW stretching their resources too thinly which will impact the wider network.

I'm kind-of wondering this too. Surely more new trains will need to be ordered soon (and some sort of temporary arrangement put in place while they're procured and built, my idea for which I won't mention here in a non-speculative section).

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I'm kind-of wondering this too. Surely more new trains will need to be ordered soon (and some sort of temporary arrangement put in place while they're procured and built, my idea for which I won't mention here in a non-speculative section).

TfW have begun the procurement process for additional units but, as you suggest, interim additons will be required. Just extending the leases on the 153s won'r be enough.

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/tfw-told-start-procuring-more-new-trains

 

[Russel]

TfW have begun the procurement process for additional units but, as you suggest, interim additons will be required. Just extending the leases on the 153s won'r be enough.

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/tfw-told-start-procuring-more-new-trains

Other then keeping 158s, which I'd guess are already pencilled in for another TOC, they don't have many options really, during the interim period..

 

[Caaardiff]

With this and the Bristol proposals, where are TFW planning to find the spare 197s to work them, given what we've seen of fleet availability since their introduction...

I fully support improvements, but I can see TFW stretching their resources too thinly which will impact the wider network.

There's about 9 197's tied up on routes that the 231's were destined for.
As the Bristol route is an extension of West Wales services that tend to have layover time at Canton, as well as only being 2 hourly to start, it won't take many extra units to cover that, and a Wrexham - Chester shuttle should only take up one unit.

There could also be scope to extend some of the 150's that still have some life in them until new stock arrives.

 

[Russel]

There's about 9 197's tied up on routes that the 231's were destined for.
As the Bristol route is an extension of West Wales services that tend to have layover time at Canton, as well as only being 2 hourly to start, it won't take many extra units to cover that, and a Wrexham - Chester shuttle should only take up one unit.

There could also be scope to extend some of the 150's that still have some life in them until new stock arrives.

Are the 231s not all in service yet then?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are the 231s not all in service yet then?

Yes they are, but not on the routes that they were planned for.
The delay in introducing the class 398 tram trains on the Valleys network is causing substitutions by the class 231/756 fleets, so 197s are standing in for the 231s.
It might take another year to sort things out.

 

[Russel]

Yes they are, but not on the routes that they were planned for.
The delay in introducing the class 398 tram trains on the Valleys network is causing substitutions by the class 231/756 fleets, so 197s are standing in for the 231s.
It might take another year to sort things out.

Ah right, thanks for the explanation.

Usual railway upgrade time chaos then.

 

[catfordbags]

Any thoughts on re-opening Oswestry as a terminal station for Liverpool services - I assume the business case is a none starter....

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Any thoughts on re-opening Oswestry as a terminal station for Liverpool services - I assume the business case is a none starter....

See:

Oswestry Branch Railway Restoration - The Truth

The plan is in two phases: A light railway from Gobowen to Park Hall Halt (and access to the local hospital), and from there under the A5 via a new tunnel, estimated to cost over £9 million, to Oswestry. This is a single track line. The plan is to run the service every hour at first, tying in...

www.railforums.co.uk

Gobowen to Oswestry could it be reconsidered about opening as a shuttle service by N.R. ?

On facebook unofficial Llangollen railway group there is a post from Nicholas Collins about Helen Morgan north Shropshire M.P. announcement talks again earlier that local people have backed today 4 October about a N.R. transport for Wales Gobowen to Oswestry shuttle has been confirmed as going...

railforums.co.uk

(Those threads don't directly address the question of Liverpool services, but probably answer questions about the viability of reopening the branch)

 

[tfw756rider]

Welsh Government Transport posted the following on X on the 10/10/25:

From May 2026, you'll be able to get a train directly from Llandudno to Liverpool as part of Network North Wales. Eluned Morgan, First Minister of Wales met with Steve Rotheram, Mayor of the Liverpool City Region to talk about how we're creating opportunities to strengthen the links to Merseyside and the North-West.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Welsh Government Transport posted the following on X on the 10/10/25:

No details of frequency or how they will timetable the 3tph down the coast.
There's also the additional (Crewe-) Chester-Wrexham services to fit in too.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yep. By itself, that announcement is so vague that it could theoretically mean, there will be one return train a day from Llandudno to Liverpool. In practice it probably means more than that. My best guess is, what's actually being planned is to extend the hourly Liverpool-Runcorn-Chester service to Llandudno. That would fit in with TfW's stated intention for 50% more trains on the North Wales main line.

 

[sefyllian]

My best guess is, what's actually being planned is to extend the hourly Liverpool-Runcorn-Chester service to Llandudno.

I think that’s always been the plan, as stated by TfW in the past:

• Liverpool to Chester service extended to Llandudno from 2026, subject to agreement with Network Rail and work completed to level crossings

The holdup has been the need to close foot crossings at Pensarn and Prestatyn to allow for the extra services.

Network Rail have now confirmed these will close by May 2026, though the replacement bridges won’t be ready until “early 2027” with “temporary arrangements at both level crossings before the bridge is ready. We are currently exploring what temporary arrangements will be needed to enable residents to cross safely over the railway until the new bridge is open”

Plans for Pensarn crossing and plans for Prestatyn

 

[Llandudno]

Yep. By itself, that announcement is so vague that it could theoretically mean, there will be one return train a day from Llandudno to Liverpool. In practice it probably means more than that. My best guess is, what's actually being planned is to extend the hourly Liverpool-Runcorn-Chester service to Llandudno. That would fit in with TfW's stated intention for 50% more trains on the North Wales main line.

Indeed, similar to the political fanfare of the launch of direct trains from Wrexham General to Liverpool Lime Street when the Halton Curve reopened, turned out to be one train per day!

Then there was the promise of an hourly Liverpool-Wrexham-Shrewsbury service which has been quietly abandoned in favour of promoting the rebranding of the Borderlands line as the Wrexham to Liverpool Line (changing at Bidston!) using unreliable 50 year old London Transport tube Units!

Also a promise of more jam tomorrow (10+ years if ever!) of battery operated 777s running from Wrexham to Liverpool Central via the Liverpool Loop…!

 

[Djgr]

Welsh Government Transport posted the following on X on the 10/10/25:

Also covered in the Liverpool Echo and Daily Post

Date set for new Liverpool train service to popular seaside town

The service will be up and running by May 2026 according to officials

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

A direct train running from Liverpool to a popular seaside town is set to begin next year. The Welsh government announced the direct service between Liverpool and Llandudno will be up and running from May next year.

No more details but the newspaper article does also talk about planned improvements at Padeswood (on the Borderlands) (Basically to stop the freight service there sabotaging the planned increase of the passenger service frequency from every 45 to every 30 minutes)