NHS - Do people actually want to live longer?

[dk1]

If I could sign something now saying I would wish to have my life terminated should I be unable to think for myself &/or be unable to carry out the most basic of human functions unaided, then I’d do it in a heartbeat.

 

[GS250]

If I could sign something now saying I would wish to have my life terminated should I be unable to think for myself &/or be unable to carry out the most basic of human functions unaided, then I’d do it in a heartbeat.

Same here. If I ever end up like Anakin Skywalker did at the end of Revenge of the Sith....then please don't patch me up. Use me as fertiliser.....

 

[dk1]

Same here. If I ever end up like Anakin Skywalker did at the end of Revenge of the Sith....then please don't patch me up. Use me as fertiliser.....

That’s gone a bit over my head but I think I concur.

 

[Bayum]

4. Best solution is change gp surgeries to senior nurse led. Move nearly all Gp's to AE triage. Anything unusual now they Google it, ask for a blood test, then send you to hospital if not normal. Overpaid wastes of space.

NHS hospital doctors and consultants do earn their keep and its time GP's did the same.

Have you, erm, actually looked into this? Do you know what additional training nurses need in order to run a GP surgery - diagnose, treat and prescribe (limited) pharmaceuticals?

Do you have any inkling of what a GP is actually trained in? There’s a reason GPs are consultants outside of hospital and not inside a hospital as an emergency consultant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2022 ==

If I could sign something now saying I would wish to have my life terminated should I be unable to think for myself &/or be unable to carry out the most basic of human functions unaided, then I’d do it in a heartbeat.

Same here. If I ever end up like Anakin Skywalker did at the end of Revenge of the Sith....then please don't patch me up. Use me as fertiliser.....

You can. Go and speak to a solicitor. Make your wishes known to your family now.

 

[dk1]

You can. Go and speak to a solicitor. Make your wishes known to your family now.

Will get round to it one day but doubt I’ll tell anyone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2022 ==

Will get round to it one day but doubt I’ll tell anyone.

Unless they read this of course lol.

 

[alxndr]

Will get round to it one day but doubt I’ll tell anyone.

You would need to tell people so that the necessary paperwork can be produced quickly if needed. It would also be best to explain why you've made such a decision, rather than have the information sprung on them out of the blue at what would already be a difficult time.

 

[dk1]

You would need to tell people so that the necessary paperwork can be produced quickly if needed. It would also be best to explain why you've made such a decision, rather than have the information sprung on them out of the blue at what would already be a difficult time.

I’m sure they’d understand & not many of them. I’ve thought like that since I was very young. Must be awful to be end up like that. I see no point in carrying on in such circumstances.

 

[johntea]

My aunt had dementia and it was no way to live at all, just sat in a care home...visiting was always a sad experience as she was affected so badly she didn't recognize us one bit - the change from her previous Irish outgoing chatterbox personality to what she ended up as

My uncle just had a massive heart attack one day and that was that

Oddly my previous job had some tragedy too - my line manager had a heart attack but recovered, came back to work for a bit but quickly decided enough was enough on that front and retired, sadly his wife then suddenly passed away less than a year into his retirement and although he is still around all that has caused him to enter quite a deep depression so he certainly isn't enjoying his deserved retirement (again, before all this he was such a strong character)

Then while we were all worried about him recovering the department boss was playing in a band at his local pub one weekend, then all of a sudden collapsed and pronounced dead...the day before I was sat next to him in a meeting at work and his last words still haunt me 'have a good weekend see you on Monday'...

Certainly given me a different outlook on life anyway, I'll save for a rainy day but certainly won't hesistate to spend a good few quid enjoying myself these days whilst I'm still fit and healthy!

 

[Runningaround]

It'll hopefully never be a decision we ever make, I doubt the OP has ever been there.
When close to the end do we want to finish it there and then or hold on to hear and see a bit longer. I think I'd rather go straight away rather than being put into palliative care and have food, drink and treatment withdrawn as you don't know how long it'd take and I do know some in it can hear whats going on around them but cannot do anything. I cannot think what they feel when it comes to decision made by others

 

[brad465]

During the height of covid I started a thread about "human exceptionalism" and the role this apparent mindset played in our covid response. I think this same mindset is influencing our attitude to life expectancy in an unhealthy way. My view is for as long as someone is relatively healthy and able to live independently they should continue to do so, but if they have a terminal illness/condition that means they are not living a natural life (including needing 24/7 care), then I think the option for euthanasia should be made available, as long as they can consent. As a Christian I believe in the right to a natural life and general Christian teaching is opposed to euthanasia/assisted suicide for this reason. I have a more liberal view, where while I agree euthanasia should not be a free for all service, I think there is a point where it's possible to be alive but not living a natural life, and in those circumstances euthanasia should be permitted.

I found myself getting dementia or another degenerative illness, I'd see if I can get someone to deliberately give me pneumonia; the fact that it's nicknamed "the old man's friend" is indicative for the fact that, deep down at least, we don't like seeing/experiencing long term suffering, even if in reality we are effectively enabling more suffering. My grandmother is believed to be in the early stages of dementia, and depending on how things progress with it, I wouldn't be surprised if in 2+ years time, her health is such that, in the circumstances, I'd prefer her to have moved on from this world than to stay alive in the state she could be in.

The big problem we have is how taboo a subject this is to talk about in public, despite the fact that I think there is a large subset of the population who thinks it. I don't think all the NHS's problems will be solved by legalising euthanasia in the way I've suggested, but it will certainly help, and there are potentially other things that can be done regarding quality vs quantity of life. If we don't identify the actual problems we cannot apply the correct solutions. One solution I'd suggest is ditching life expectancy in favour of Quality Adjusted Life years (QALY), or another alternative measure which considers quality.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at the title of this thread from a personal point of view, I am now 77 years of age and whilst a certain amount of age-related medical problems so afflict me, my brain is kept active by contributing to websites such as this and my stroke consultant on each annual consultation that I have had since the stroke that I suffered in July 2012 (ten years ago now) says that keeping your brain active is one way of ensuring you get the most out of life.

 

[GS250]

It'll hopefully never be a decision we ever make, I doubt the OP has ever been there.
When close to the end do we want to finish it there and then or hold on to hear and see a bit longer. I think I'd rather go straight away rather than being put into palliative care and have food, drink and treatment withdrawn as you don't know how long it'd take and I do know some in it can hear whats going on around them but cannot do anything. I cannot think what they feel when it comes to decision made by others

Sadly we rarely get to choose our demise. Yes it can be influenced by lifestyle choices but the 'final approach' so to speak is usually down to others.

 

[Runningaround]

Sadly we rarely get to choose our demise. Yes it can be influenced by lifestyle choices but the 'final approach' so to speak is usually down to others.

What cannot be undone is if you chose while in the correct mind to end your life and then change once incapable of communicating. I've been in palliative(not as a patient) care many times and have seen many patients hear what's going on as the places are so quiet possibly beyond the room. I'd not be surprised if they can hear the decisions being made on your behalf.

I believe some countries are considering euthanasia for severely depressed patients who have attempted suicide many times if they believe it might be best for them.
At what point do we choose to live and give others the means to legally end yours? I've known someone be convicted for aiding a terminally ill friend to travel to a end there life in Switzerland.
Would I do it. I don't think the legality would stop me or most people if it meant helping loved ones.

I don't know where the OP gets his keeping patients alive earns doctors more money though. If we were all under 50 in tip top condition then there workload would be reduced and they'd earn the same for less work.
Would he be equally suspicious if they had a partnership in an Undertakers?

 

[Busaholic]

Looking at the title of this thread from a personal point of view, I am now 77 years of age and whilst a certain amount of age-related medical problems so afflict me, my brain is kept active by contributing to websites such as this and my stroke consultant on each annual consultation that I have had since the stroke that I suffered in July 2012 (ten years ago now) says that keeping your brain active is one way of ensuring you get the most out of life.

While that is undeniably true, and I wish you many more years of that being so in your case, it can be extremely debilitating and frustrating, at the very least, if you still have a good brain but your body is failing. This was certainly the case with my wife, taken into hospital just before Christmas, but who died there six weeks later. I won't go into any more details, save to say that covid only entered the equation in the sense that she had to be isolated when a neighbouring patient tested positive. Continuing to live in the condition she was already in, which was only going to get worse, she'd have found intolerable. I might add that DNR was NOT a factor, and the hospital staff did their best to resuscitate her when she had a cardiac arrest on the afternoon she died, but she didn't have the physical resources to respond. Hours before her death she was texting and on the internet, such that a stranger would never know her true condition.

 

[david1212]

There's another aspect of the NHS preferring to do "easy" things rather than more difficult ones, made worse by the funding model where trusts/depts etc are paid for the work they do. They love the "bread and butter" work like hip replacements which are pretty routine/easy. That's why people who are very old/infirm with low quality of life often get offered/pressurised into certain types of operation which aren't really appropriate, because it's "easy" money for the trust to fill their slots. They ruined the last few months of my mothers' life by giving her a hip replacement. She already had cancer and was "enjoying" a pretty basic life, managing to do things herself etc., in the knowledge her days were numbered. But her hip replacement really knocked her back, in hospital a week, then really struggled to get back her mobility (she could do more with the damaged hip than during the 2-3 months of recovery with the new one) and then died of the cancer just as she could start getting about herself again. She'd definitely have had a happier/more fulfilling last few months of her life had she not had the hip operation! It's not as if the doctors didn't know she only had months to live due to the cancer, but they massively understated the recuperation/recovery time, making her think it would be a quick and easy thing to have done.

The same hospital basically left my father in law to die one night. He was only in his 60s', generally healthy, etc., but had an undiagnosed bowel blockage - all the symptoms led to that, but the doctors said it wasn't as nothing showed on their scans/tests etc., so he had a few weeks languishing in hospital where different doctors kept coming, doing more tests, but basically he was fading away. He then got an infection, then got pneumonia. We were warned in the evening that he probably wouldn't last the night. The family kicked up a massive fuss, insisted on the on call doctor being summoned, etc., and eventually, they got the message we weren't happy about them abandoning him to die! He was transferred to ICU, and within a few days, he'd got over his infections and pneumonia and was taken into theatre to explore the suspected bowel blockage. They found the blockage, repaired it and he was home within a couple of weeks. He went on to have many years of normal retired life, playing golf, going on holidays. Very hard to believe the NHS were seemingly happy just to ignore him and let him die when he had so much life left in him!

It does seem as if NHS/doctors pick and choose who they want to treat and what treatments to give them!

To me two examples of poor decision making resulting in unnecessary distress ( hard to choose the right word ) for the patient but also poor use of the available resources and wasted funds potentially denying or delaying treatment for other patients.

For your mother the cost of the hip replacement and I guess additional support afterwards.

For your father-in-law the unnecessary time in hospital as well as mental stress. If only they had taken him to theatre for investigation soon after admission.