New shorter NB4L unveiled

[radamfi]

The city with the greatest proportion of cycling in the developed world also has a lot of bendy buses. In fact, they have Mercedes CapaCity 4 axle, 4 door bendy buses. You would think that the mix of bendy buses and bikes would cause major issues, but no. What is the secret? Clue: watch the video of the Mercedes CapaCity I posted earlier.

 

[Dent]

Sorry but that's bunkum. He's right - we've been over this so many times and saying "prove it" is pointless.

Asking someone to justify a statement they have made is in no way "pointless", being able to justify statements you have made is a fundamental part of a reasoned discussion.

If these statements are unjustifiable then they shouldn't have been made, and it needs to be exposed that they are baseless and therefore carry no weight in a reasoned discussion.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Asking someone to justify a statement they have made is in no way "pointless", being able to justify statements you have made is a fundamental part of a reasoned discussion.

If these statements are unjustifiable then they shouldn't have been made, and it needs to be exposed that they are baseless and therefore carry no weight in a reasoned discussion.

In most other threads/subjects, I would be absolutely shoulder to shoulder with you on that.

However, the subject of Boris' statements regarding bendibuses killing cyclists have been debated on this site ad nauseum and in the wider press. It's not a case of an issue that hasn't been discussed extensively, nor the facts subject to clarification or interpretation. This is something that was debunked years ago.

 

[Antman]

In most other threads/subjects, I would be absolutely shoulder to shoulder with you on that.

However, the subject of Boris' statements regarding bendibuses killing cyclists have been debated on this site ad nauseum and in the wider press. It's not a case of an issue that hasn't been discussed extensively, nor the facts subject to clarification or interpretation. This is something that was debunked years ago.

This danger to cyclists issue is a bit of a red herring anyway, there are other reasons why bendybuses were unsuitable for central London

 

[90sWereBetter]

Just use my opinion - that bendybuses and the NB4L are both terrible vehicle types. Saves a lot of aggro.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This danger to cyclists issue is a bit of a red herring anyway, there are other reasons why bendybuses were unsuitable for central London

Yes, but that was what Robert was being called out for when it's old ground and people know that full well.

The other issues that you stated earlier "Things like operating costs, extra garage space and a low sell on price (on account nobody else will want them) come into it" - is there another design that aside from garage space seems to be equally if not more guilty of those faults? I'll leave it with you
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just use my opinion - that bendybuses and the NB4L are both terrible vehicle types. Saves a lot of aggro.

Could be worse - Guy Wulfrunian anyone? Or the Daimler Roadliner?

At least London never followed Merseyside and got some Quest 80s (one for the kids there!!)

 

[Antman]

Yes, but that was what Robert was being called out for when it's old ground and people know that full well.

The other issues that you stated earlier "Things like operating costs, extra garage space and a low sell on price (on account nobody else will want them) come into it" - is there another design that aside from garage space seems to be equally if not more guilty of those faults? I'll leave it with you

Robert was making sweeping statements which he couldn't substantiate when challenged, anyway there is no point in going over it all again.

 

[Robertj21a]

Robert was making sweeping statements which he couldn't substantiate when challenged, anyway there is no point in going over it all again.

Correction. I was more than capable of substantiating everything I wrote. My 'despair' was that there were some people who were either being deliberately awkward or, clearly, hadn't read anything on the subject despite it appearing in numerous magazines, internet forums, Yahoo groups, Google groups etc etc. I don't see why I should be expected to go over the same old ground yet again for a few people who simply can't be bothered to do any research for themselves.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Robert was making sweeping statements which he couldn't substantiate when challenged, anyway there is no point in going over it all again.

In his defence, it's something that's has been covered ad infinitum over the last 7 years. However, I do agree with you that we've discussed this enough and that we should move this on Sure we've all got better things to be doing, and so have the moderators
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Correction. I was more than capable of substantiating everything I wrote. My 'despair' was that there were some people who were either being deliberately awkward or, clearly, hadn't read anything on the subject despite it appearing in numerous magazines, internet forums, Yahoo groups, Google groups etc etc. I don't see why I should be expected to go over the same old ground yet again for a few people who simply can't be bothered to do any research for themselves.

I do sympathise - however, probably best if we move on

 

[Robertj21a]

In his defence, it's something that's has been covered ad infinitum over the last 7 years. However, I do agree with you that we've discussed this enough and that we should move this on Sure we've all got better things to be doing, and so have the moderators
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I do sympathise - however, probably best if we move on

Agreed.

 

[Antman]

Correction. I was more than capable of substantiating everything I wrote. My 'despair' was that there were some people who were either being deliberately awkward or, clearly, hadn't read anything on the subject despite it appearing in numerous magazines, internet forums, Yahoo groups, Google groups etc etc. I don't see why I should be expected to go over the same old ground yet again for a few people who simply can't be bothered to do any research for themselves.

But it was little more than hearsay and rumour rather than anything factual

 

[Robertj21a]

But it was little more than hearsay and rumour rather than anything factual

Whatever !!. No, all facts - but you believe what you want, the rest of us have moved on.

 

[Antman]

Whatever !!. No, all facts - but you believe what you want, the rest of us have moved on.

It was you doing just that (ie making a statement that you couldn't back up with facts) that caused all this in the first place.

"The rest of us"? Nice attempt to twist things

When in a hole best to stop digging!

 

[the101]

Seems to me that you don't understand why they are unpopular and generally impractical? You can't blame the London mayor for the fact that they are rare in the UK. Things like operating costs, extra garage space and a low sell on price (on account nobody else will want them) come into it.

See, you seem to be giving another poster (rather more learned than you are in the intricacies of bus operation, it must be said) a hard time at the moment over unsubstantiated statements yet you have posted the above, most of which is... unsubstantiated.

Your attempt to use the low sell-on price as a stick to beat the articulated bus with is absurd. It suggests that you know very little of how buses are operated in the real world. Sell-on price is irrelevant if buses of any kind are depreciated over 15 years and actually used for that long, which in London with a mid-life refurbishment is not impracticable. Then, once it is time for them to go, they can be released for scrap value without any concern about residuals.

The point you attempt to make about operating costs is also ill-founded. It would hold true were the artics' capacity not required, but in London, it was. When routes were converted back to double-deck operation, more buses were added into the mix, as were more drivers, and the latter certainly aren't cheap in London. I would venture that, when used in that kind of high volume service, the cost of operation per passenger mile is little different to that of a double-decker with its much lower capacity.

One other thing you conveniently also forget to consider in your bashing of artics is that non-existent sell-on values will also apply to hybrids of all kinds, including the New RM. It seems now that hybrids have been in operation for a while that battery life on them is going to be around the 5-6 year mark, at which point operators need to find in the region of £35-40k for a new set. That's not a planned cost, by the way, as when the batteries will fail cannot be accurately predicted - but it's still a cost, and it needs to be factored into the total operating cost of a hybrid bus. They don't look quite so good when that is considered, do they?

So let's say a hybrid comes out of London at 10-12 years old on its second battery pack. Who in their right mind is going to buy it knowing that a massive expenditure could well be around the corner? Nobody is, and hence it seems inevitable that when the time comes that hybrids are moved on from London they will either go straight for scrap or in some cases be re-engineered into conventional diesels at a cost probably equivalent to what they are worth. Of course, TfL's bus people are actually quite intelligent as a bunch and they will realise this, hence it's quite likely that hybrids will serve a full life in London - just as the artics could and should have done.

You need only look at what Ensign sold some of the early hybrids for to see that they are more or less worthless on the second-hand market, and will remain so.

 

[Busaholic]

I thought they were very suitable for Oxford St. The thing that is the problem with Oxford St was not bendies, but the poorly designed layout of the stops. This made no difference when RMs were being used, as people just got on and off where they felt like - but as soon as doored buses came along it all became quite awkward to use.

Oxford St could be sorted out such that it worked fine with bendies. Another thing that would work well would be the removal of the right of taxis to stop where they felt like - it should be a Red Route clearway with laybys for that purpose and a few taxi ranks for those wishing to board.

The last time Westminster Council decided to 'sort out' Oxford Street they managed to close off the more popular western end to all vehicles, including buses, for well over a year, all to leave the dog's dinner it is today. It is now forgotten by many that Oxford Street had two bendybus routes, the other one being the 25, although not operating west of Oxford Circus it didn't get the negative press of the 73. What did happen, though, on the intro of bendies to the 25 was that the first eastbound stop on Oxford Street was deemed impossible for them to serve, so they could not stop to pick up for another 300 metres - so much for accessibilityWith the sheer number of routes and buses going along Oxford Street, there would never have been scope for conversion to artics of them all, and none of the countries invoked would attempt it either imo.

I absolutely agree about the taxi problem, though, and I'd personally like to see them banned altogether, certainly until 7 p.m.

 

[Antman]

See, you seem to be giving another poster (rather more learned than you are in the intricacies of bus operation, it must be said) a hard time at the moment over unsubstantiated statements yet you have posted the above, most of which is... unsubstantiated.

Your attempt to use the low sell-on price as a stick to beat the articulated bus with is absurd. It suggests that you know very little of how buses are operated in the real world. Sell-on price is irrelevant if buses of any kind are depreciated over 15 years and actually used for that long, which in London with a mid-life refurbishment is not impracticable. Then, once it is time for them to go, they can be released for scrap value without any concern about residuals.

The point you attempt to make about operating costs is also ill-founded. It would hold true were the artics' capacity not required, but in London, it was. When routes were converted back to double-deck operation, more buses were added into the mix, as were more drivers, and the latter certainly aren't cheap in London. I would venture that, when used in that kind of high volume service, the cost of operation per passenger mile is little different to that of a double-decker with its much lower capacity.

One other thing you conveniently also forget to consider in your bashing of artics is that non-existent sell-on values will also apply to hybrids of all kinds, including the New RM. It seems now that hybrids have been in operation for a while that battery life on them is going to be around the 5-6 year mark, at which point operators need to find in the region of £35-40k for a new set. That's not a planned cost, by the way, as when the batteries will fail cannot be accurately predicted - but it's still a cost, and it needs to be factored into the total operating cost of a hybrid bus. They don't look quite so good when that is considered, do they?

So let's say a hybrid comes out of London at 10-12 years old on its second battery pack. Who in their right mind is going to buy it knowing that a massive expenditure could well be around the corner? Nobody is, and hence it seems inevitable that when the time comes that hybrids are moved on from London they will either go straight for scrap or in some cases be re-engineered into conventional diesels at a cost probably equivalent to what they are worth. Of course, TfL's bus people are actually quite intelligent as a bunch and they will realise this, hence it's quite likely that hybrids will serve a full life in London - just as the artics could and should have done.

You need only look at what Ensign sold some of the early hybrids for to see that they are more or less worthless on the second-hand market, and will remain so.

This is just nonsense, few buses spend their entire life in London, after about 10-12 years they tend to be sold for school work and such like. I can't imagine many operators wanting to buy artics can you?

I don't see how hybrids come into this but the early ones were somewhat experimental and were never intended to have a long service life.

 

[the101]

This is just nonsense, few buses spend their entire life in London, after about 10-12 years they tend to be sold for school work and such like. I can't imagine many operators wanting to buy artics can you?

I don't see how hybrids come into this but the early ones were somewhat experimental and were never intended to have a long service life.

Like I said, you have zero idea about how buses are financed and utilised and should stop trying to pretend that you do. It's all about cost of ownership and had you actually understood what I wrote you would see that. Given that you don't seem to grasp anything of what I wrote, and instead choose to dismiss it all, I don't see that there's much point wasting time discussing further, although I wonder what gives you the idea that early hybrids were built without a full life in mind. Who decided that - you?

 

[Antman]

Like I said, you have zero idea about how buses are financed and utilised and should stop trying to pretend that you do. It's all about cost of ownership and had you actually understood what I wrote you would see that. Given that you don't seem to grasp anything of what I wrote, and instead choose to dismiss it all, I don't see that there's much point wasting time discussing further, although I wonder what gives you the idea that early hybrids were built without a full life in mind. Who decided that - you?

Oh and of course you're an expert aren't you?:roll:

Oh and if you had a clue what you were talking about you might know about 58 reg hybrids being scrapped, but clearly you're just a troll!

 

[ChrisPJ]

That's a bit harsh. I didn't know about 58 reg hybrids going for scrap, which ones? Would have thought a conversion to straight diesel would've made sense on an asset that age?

 

[Antman]

That's a bit harsh. I didn't know about 58 reg hybrids going for scrap, which ones? Would have thought a conversion to straight diesel would've made sense on an asset that age?

25111-15 Optare Tempos from Stagecoach London fleet

 

[mbonwick]

None of the Stagecoach London Tempos were 58 plate; 25111 was 08 plate, the rest 09.
LX09BGV has been exported to Cyprus, so they've not all been scrapped either.

 

[Antman]

None of the Stagecoach London Tempos were 58 plate; 25111 was 08 plate, the rest 09.
LX09BGV has been exported to Cyprus, so they've not all been scrapped either.

You're right about the reg but I was told by a Stagecoach employee that they were being scrapped, they were in effect experimental vehicles and obviously hybrids have advanced considerably since

 

[mbonwick]

They were sold to Ensign (dealer), who subsequently exported LX09BGV. There's been no report of the others since, and Ensign are usually pretty good at reporting their sales/scrappings to enthusiasts. Would guess the others are still sat at their Purfleet yard?

I do agree with you that their hybrid technology was rather experimental and unreliable.

 

[F3000]

I don't think any have been scrapped.

LX09 BGV - Went to Cyprus
LX09 BGK + BGU - Went to Associated Coach Sales (New Zealand)
and this photo shows YJ08 PGO + LX09BGF at Ensign at the end of October

 

[ChrisPJ]

I did hear that some early Wright hybrids have been fragged.

 

[Mikey C]

The last time Westminster Council decided to 'sort out' Oxford Street they managed to close off the more popular western end to all vehicles, including buses, for well over a year, all to leave the dog's dinner it is today. It is now forgotten by many that Oxford Street had two bendybus routes, the other one being the 25, although not operating west of Oxford Circus it didn't get the negative press of the 73. What did happen, though, on the intro of bendies to the 25 was that the first eastbound stop on Oxford Street was deemed impossible for them to serve, so they could not stop to pick up for another 300 metres - so much for accessibilityWith the sheer number of routes and buses going along Oxford Street, there would never have been scope for conversion to artics of them all, and none of the countries invoked would attempt it either imo.

I absolutely agree about the taxi problem, though, and I'd personally like to see them banned altogether, certainly until 7 p.m.

There are stops, for example in Park Lane, where 10 highly frequent routes stop at the same bus stops, and it's normal that several will arrive at the same time. Bendies, e.g. on the 73, were a real nuisance for users of other routes as they would clog the stops up.

That's a major difference between London and many smaller cities where bendies are used.