New Birmingham to Manchester link proposed- post NPR

[Topological]

I thought the feeling was that you could curve about 90 degress towards the East after Piccadilly and that would then point the trains towards Leeds. The NPR plan was an Ardwick* to Marsden tunnel using junctions at the south end of the Piccadilly terminus. The through underground station just needs to find that tunnel alignment somewhere.

However, I do think the surface option is better. Yes you have reversals, but in the even that HS becomes a bigger network, HS could progressively take over platforms in the main shed. An underground station would be constrained.

 

[edwin_m]

I thought the feeling was that you could curve about 90 degress towards the East after Piccadilly and that would then point the trains towards Leeds.

It depends on the route of the putative high speed alignment. No route has been published to my knowledge. But it was stated to end at Marsden so my betting would be to aim for the gap between Oldham and Ashton which is probably a 135 degree turn. Using part of the Guide Bridge alignment would involve a turn of about 200 degreed then a reverse curve. A 90 degree turn would point towards Rochdale, which might work for a route via Bradford but would have to be pretty convoluted to pass through Marsden.

This assumes the underground station is parallel with the Piccadilly trainshed and trains from Liverpool enter from the east via the HS2 alignment. I guess rotating it clockwise might help.

 

[Topological]

It depends on the route of the putative high speed alignment. No route has been published to my knowledge. But it was stated to end at Marsden so my betting would be to aim for the gap between Oldham and Ashton which is probably a 135 degree turn. Using part of the Guide Bridge alignment would involve a turn of about 200 degreed then a reverse curve. A 90 degree turn would point towards Rochdale, which might work for a route via Bradford but would have to be pretty convoluted to pass through Marsden.

This assumes the underground station is parallel with the Piccadilly trainshed and trains from Liverpool enter from the east via the HS2 alignment. I guess rotating it clockwise might help.

Sorry, yes.

I always forget that the platforms at Piccadilly are almost running East to West. The assumption that they are South to North, with the buffers at the North end. That does create a lot of turn to get anything North East.

I would expect the alignment to be closer to Oldham than Ashton, but as you say no alignment was ever published. My understanding was that they were keen to come in along the route of the Guide Bridge line because of the development above any Oldham Road type alignment.

 

[MPW]

My question or comment was more about the phasing. If a new transpennine line (in whichever direction) is phase 3 of NPR, but the liverpool to manchester bit is phase 2, and they want it to be an underground station, then that must mean trains terminating at the underground platforms. At least until phase 3 is complete, which could be a decade later than phase 2 (if either happens).

Seems like an unnecessary burden on phase 2 in terms of cost and viability. I know the details aren't out yet so I guess im just scratching my head aloud.

 

[MarkyT]

Either is a major change to the alignments already developed for HS2 and is likely to create a significant delay while the new alignment goes through the various design stages. Building at least part of the surface HS2 station avoids this, and note that a stub junction was added to the design between the station and the tunnel mouth that would be the jumping-off point for a new or exiting route towards Leeds.

It incorporated a clever flyover design to minimise throat conflict for reversing NPR trains. I created an animation illustrating the concept on a simplified layout.

 

[Nottingham59]

I thought the feeling was that you could curve about 90 degress towards the East after Piccadilly and that would then point the trains towards Leeds. The NPR plan was an Ardwick* to Marsden tunnel using junctions at the south end of the Piccadilly terminus. The through underground station just needs to find that tunnel alignment somewhere.

However, I do think the surface option is better. Yes you have reversals, but in the even that HS becomes a bigger network, HS could progressively take over platforms in the main shed. An underground station would be constrained.

The proposal by Weston Williamson + Partners and engineering consultants Expedition Engineering in 2020 ish suggested such a curve towards Leeds.



Image from:

Underground station tabled to connect HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail in Manchester | New Civil Engineer

The High Speed Station Square proposal has been submitted in response the National Infrastructure Commission (NIC)’s call for evidence in March on rail

www.newcivilengineer.com

 

[fishwomp]

Society works best when old men plant trees in hwhos shade they will never sit, but without the whole planting trees part obviously.

Yes - the PowerPoint slides and press releases today, means that in two generations those people can submit a business case for funding, to be turned down, objected to, nimbyed, started and then cancelled!

 

[edwin_m]

It incorporated a clever flyover design to minimise throat conflict for reversing NPR trains. I created an animation illustrating the concept on a simplified layout.

Thanks for that - I recalled something to that effect but not the details. Essentially NPR services run on the right when going to or from the Leeds route.