Need Help - Northern short fare

[Alex999]

Hi,

I recently got a train from an un-manned station and found that I didn't have enough money to pay a full fare. Instead I did what is referred to by Northern Rail as 'Short Faring' (Which in hindsight was very silly of me). I purchased from a nearer station to my destination than where I had actually come from.

The man who sold me the ticket then showed me to another man who then questioned me on where I had really come from. I complied with everything and told him the truth. He then recorded my details and asked why I did it, to which I replied that I didn't have enough money and I regretted doing it. He then said that would be sent a letter in the coming weeks which I would have to reply to in order to avoid a fine. I then asked him if I was going to be fined or charged with anything and he seemed to think not. This is the exact opposite of what people on here seem to be saying which is why I could do with a bit of help. I really shouldn't have done it and I know I will not do it again but can someone please, with experience tell me what happened to them or what will happen next after I write back.

Thanks, Alex

 

[bb21]

Short-faring is a Section 5.3(a) (and possibly 5.3(b)) offence under the Regulation of Railways Act. If convicted, a criminal record will be given against you, in addition to a fine (and other costs).

However for a first offence, Northern are known to ask for a penalty of £80 plus the unpaid fare, if you show genuine regret and remorse in your reply. Of course nothing is guaranteed and they have the option of going to court should they feel that they have more than enough evidence to secure a conviction.

Your first job is thinking about how to reply to that letter when it arrives. You will need to be honest in your reply about what happened to avoid making this worse.

 

[Alex999]

Thanks for the fast reply.

I really am sorry for what I did and will express it in the letter. I was wondering if you know of anyone who has got away without paying as the man seemed to think that I wouldn't be fined or charged. I would be quite willing to pay the fine and unpaid ticket and will state this in the letter if you recommend i do so?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the fast reply.

I really am sorry for what I did and will express it in the letter. I was wondering if you know of anyone who has got away without paying
What do you mean by "got away without paying"?

Do you mean being found innocent? Or do you mean the matter was dropped?

The former appears to be rare.

Regarding the latter, I have known a few people come back here to let us know the matter was dropped (e.g. if there is a problem gathering the required evidence, or the Train Company is too busy dealing with other cases). But I wouldn't count on that!

as the man seemed to think that I wouldn't be fined or charged.

I don't know what Train Company you travelled with, but that surprises me. If it was Northern Rail I agree that they might not charge you with an offence, and instead they might simply ask you to pay a £80 "fee" (which would effectively be an out of court settlement, rather than a fine - which could only be imposed in Court) but they're quite entitled to press charges against you.

I would be quite willing to pay the fine and unpaid ticket and will state this in the letter if you recommend i do so?

Pay the fine? There is only a fine payable if you are found guilty in court.

However you might mean you are willing to settle the matter out of court? That would require the agreement of both parties (ie, the Train Company and yourself). Most Companies don't tend to offer that, though some do. If such an offer is made to the Train Company, some are more likely to accept than others. Their decision will be based on factors such as the evidence they have obtained.

You may find previous threads of interest (but each case is unique!) and also you may find this helpful RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 10 - Disputes

 

[bb21]

Yes, Northern have dropped some cases previously, however that is in the distinct minority. Sometimes discretion are shown but it is impossible for us to say when and under what circumstances they would do that.

 

[Alex999]

Thanks bb21 and yorkie.. You've both helped a lot.

I will offer to pay a fee for an out of court settlement to try to make it a little simpler as I would much rather not have to go to court. Cheers for the help guys

 

[Alex999]

Hi so I replied to my letter which I received because I was caught short-faring. I sent it with 24 hour delivery post and they received it the next day because I checked using the recorded mail. I still haven't had a response after 14 days. Can anyone tell me if this is normal and how long it usually takes them to respond? Also can you tell me if it takes longer for them to respond if they are taking me to court rather than taking the out-of-court settlement I offered?

Thanks

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It can take weeks.
Even months. Though I suspect that you won't be kept waiting that long.

Northern Rail have a very busy workload in their Revenue & Prosecutions unit, and they just work though all the incidents that are recorded in sequence.

Yes, it is reasonable to assume that it takes longer to prepare a file for Prosecution than it does to simply send out a standard letter offering a 'Failure to Pay' charge of £80. But what good does knowing that do you? You don't know how long the delay is in getting through all their other correspondence in the incoming mail before yours, so you have no reference time to which you could add that slight additional delay for a Prosecution.

Anyway, I sense that you are concerned. Perhaps rightly, perhaps not. If it helps to put your anxiety in perspective, then there are two likely outcomes:-

One one hand, there is the recurring mystery of dozens of rail passengers wrongly stating the name of the station at which they boarded and in doing so, stating the name of another station which is on the same train's route but closer to the destination. This is a very common occurrence on the railways; so common that there is a bundle of case law on that very habit (and it doesn't help the passenger who has chosen to make that false statement - it is fraudulent behaviour).

On the other hand, Northern Rail experience such a vast degree of fare evasion (and other fraudulent fare irregularities) every day, that they introduced that fixed fee of £80 for first-time offenders (called a Failure to Pay scheme) and the Company is continuing to offerithat simple and quick procedure very widely, all across their enormous pile of reports of ticketless travel every day.


Who knows which will apply to you? You certainly can't deduce it from the time taken.
I would try to deduce it from your personal history. My hunch is that if this is the first time you've been detected travelling without a valid ticket, then you'll fall into the second category, the Failure to Pay fee of £80.
If not, then you'll be in the first category.

 

[EC02]

One one hand, there is the recurring mystery of dozens of rail passengers wrongly stating the name of the station at which they boarded and in doing so, stating the name of another station which is on the same train's route but closer to the destination. This is a very common occurrence on the railways; so common that there is a bundle of case law on that very habit (and it doesn't help the passenger who has chosen to make that false statement - it is fraudulent behaviour).

can you please elaborate on the above? will a more serious letter to be received?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

can you please elaborate on the above? will a more serious letter to be received?

I was trying to indicate that the practice of naming the wrong station and that the wrongly named station is closer to the destination is such a frequent occurrrence that it is generally treated as fare evasion.
This is generally followed up by a letter inviting the passenger to provide a statement which allows the Prosecutions Manager to make an informed decision on whether or not to prosecute either a Railway Byelaw Offence or a Regulation of Railways Act Offence. In extreme cases, there may be so much evidence from the point of inspection that a letter before prosecution isn't required and the next thing the passenger will hear is a Summons to appear in Court. In persistent cases, this might be for an offence under the Fraud Act.

However, Northern are inclined to apply their 'Failure to Pay' scheme to first time offenders.

[This reply is aimed at passengers in England]

 

[EC02]

Thanks a lot for your clarification

 

[reb0118]

[This reply is aimed at passengers in England]

Yes, because up here in Scotland we pass you on to the "Big Man" for further processing.

 

[34D]

However, Northern are inclined to apply their 'Failure to Pay' scheme to first time offenders.

[This reply is aimed at passengers in England]

I don't think Northern run trains in Scotland or Wales anymore (as their predecessors did)?

 

[andy90870]

hi alex
you need to relax mate.
its happened quite a lot since working for these guys, what usually happens is you give your details and why you didnt have enough to pay for it, that then gets sent off to the train company which will usually contact you within a few weeks and all that you would have to do is state what happend and why you didnt pay in fill before you got on the train. they will ask you to pay a standard fare price which is ether £20 or the full price peak time ticket cost (which ever is the greater of the amounts) its a simple open and shut thing so dont worry about it.

andy

 

[bb21]

they will ask you to pay a standard fare price which is ether £20 or the full price peak time ticket cost (which ever is the greater of the amounts) its a simple open and shut thing so dont worry about it.

I don't think I would be dismissing it so lightly.

The sticking point in this case is that the OP committed a Section 5.3(a) offence, which is far more serious than simply not buying before boarding.

Anyway Northern's standard administrative penalty is £80 and not £20. £20 is the figure for companies that run the DfT-approved Penalty Fare scheme, of which Northern is not one.

 

[MyFriendMary]

I don't think I would be dismissing it so lightly.

Also, since the TOC now has a reference for you and may have been able to verify your name/address, should you commit any further offences they could build a case against you to take to court.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Walking past a ticket office could be seen as a mistake, especially as people used to be able to buy on board. But "short faring" can only really be seen as fraud, doubly so when you admit you didn't have enough money to buy the ticket you should have done. Northern might let you off with their £80 pretend penalty fare (plus the cost of the ticket), but they'd be well within their rights not to.

Grovelling would be the wisest course of action.

 

[patch23]

Can I ask what happened with this did you get a reply from Northern Rail?