My idea for a Liverpool - Edinburgh direct service. Will it happen?

[calc7]

I like that, Nym.

 

[Whistler40145]

I thought the idea was to reduce the use of diesel stock under the wires on long distance journeys, not increase it.

 

[tbtc]

That's not what I'm getting at. I'm getting at your suggestion of Glasgow trains conveying Liverpool portions adding further capacity for Glasgow and leaving single trains for Edinburgh.

I was making the point that I think there's more demand for a Liverpool - Glasgow direct service than a Liverpool - Edinburgh service, rather than any attempt to "even up" the Glasgow/ Edinburgh split of WCML services.

In a different world you could maybe stick a two coach Liverpool portion to each Manchester service (both Glasgow and Edinburgh), but with EMUs we are probably talking four coach minimum (and I doubt there's going to be sufficient demand to attach a Liverpool portion to both the bi-hourly Glasgow service *and* the bi-hourly Edinburgh service (so if it can be only one then Glasgow would get my vote).

 

[Nym]

I like that, Nym.

Best part is the timings actually fit pathing wise, with a small wait on the Euston - Edinbrugh service. Not too sure on the Southbound, but it all slots together nicely northbound. Chances are something like this would see a full re-cast anyway.

And for those naysayers who think that HS2 will wipe all requirements for LDPE tilting stock, I put to thee that certain LM routes will move over to Class 390 operation with a reduction in the northern end of the WCML services to make up for this, so one would likely see...

After Stage 1 has opened...

Euston - Birmingham New Street (& Wolverhampton / Shrewsbury etc) via Coventry and Weedon 2tph
(Reduction from current 3tph, all calling at Bham Int, Coventry, Rugby, alternating between Milton Keynes Central and Watford Junction)
Euston - Birmingham New Street via Coventry and Northampton 2tph
(Replacing the Class 350 Operations on Northampton Fasts, calling some additional stations between Northampton and Euston, all calling Milton Keynes and Watford Junction)
Euston - Manchester Piccadilly via Stafford and Stoke
(Calling: Stockport, Macclesfeild, Stoke on Trent, Stafford, Lichfeild, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes Central, Euston)
Euston - Manchester Piccadilly via Crewe
(Calling: Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe, Nuneaton, Rugby, Watford Junction, London Euston)
Liverpool Lime Street - London Euston

Onwards in this fassion, basically drop Birmingham and Manchester LDPE Fasts to 2tph each, for Manchester one each via Crewe and Stoke, Birmingham interchanging calls at MKC and WFJ, each from Manchester calling one at MKC and WFJ and different TV stations, same deal for Liverpool Lime Street and Preston, all call Crewe and then alternate between MKC and WFJ calls with TV calls restored.

This assumes that HS2 is running:

Stage 1:
3tph Euston - Birmingham
3tph Euston - Manchester
1tph Euston - Glasgow Central
1tph Euston - Chester & Preston (Calling Stafford, Crewe, (Chester, Extensions to Holyhead & Llandudno hauled by Loco) & (Warrington, Wigan, Preston))
2tph Euston - Liverpool Lime Street

Stage 2: (Going by diagrams off Euston here)
Captive:
Birmingham 3tph Captive
Manchester 3tph Captive
Leeds 3tph Captive

Leaving HS2 at Rugley TV:
Chester and Preston 1tph
Calling: Stafford (400m long platforms needed), Crewe (Split), Chester (Extended to Holyhead and Llandudno Junction) & Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, (Leyland), Preston, Possible extensions to Lancaster.

Leaving HS2 at Manchester W Parkway (Assumed to be near Birchwood, access via Chat Moss for Liverpool and WCML south of Wigan):
Liverpool Lime Street and Blackpool North 1tph (Split at MWP)
Liverpool Lime Street and Glasgow Central (Fast) 1tph (Split at MWP)
Liverpool Lime Street and Bradford Interchange (Calling: Stockport, [via Denton], Huddersfield, Halifax, Bradford Interchange; Splits at Manchester S Parkway and reverses out on a link line to Cheadle Hulme, or runs via Manchester Victoria missing Stockport out, or Splits at MSP and reverses out of Manchester Picc via Guide Bridge.)

Leaving HS2 at Sheffield Nunnery Square:
Services via Doncaster 1tph, destinations include:
Hull Paragon, Leeds via Doncaster & Wakefield (For services to Skipton as extensions), Cleethorpes, Lincoln (Via Woodhouse), each destination to have 1tp2h.

Leaving HS2 at Leeds East Parkway (Delta Junction):
Newcastle Central 2tph (1tph to Edinburgh) via York. (Using 260m Classic Compatible Stock)
(The alternative is shunting Newcastle up to 3tph and using splitting services off route but this would either need services splitting off for Central Nottingham and Derby at E Mids Parkway (1 splits off for the City Centre, the other continues to Newcastle) actually, that could work.)

As an alternative to the above two options.

Leaving HS2 at E Mids Parkway:
1tph Split: Derby and Newcastle
1tph Split: Nottingham and Newcastle
1tph Continues through to Sheffeild Nunnery Square as a double set.

Leaving HS2 at Sheffeild Nunnery Square:
2 200m sets and 1 2x200m set will arrive per hour as Classic Compatible, and the 3tph Captive sets for Leeds, this could possibly drop to 2tph Captive to Leeds, who knows. Either way.

The 2 200m sets would call and continue to Newcastle at their 20min intervals.
The 1 2x200m Set would split as previously described for off route destinations from Sheffield, Lincoln, Hull, Harrogate, etc.

Leaving HS2 at Leeds E Parkway:
We now have 3tph heading up to Newcastle, one could have 2tph of these continuing to Edinburgh quite happily. Spaced evenly by the time they get to Newcastle by removing calls from 1tph and not the other.

That gives the Birmingham Branch 3tph, North West Branch 7tph, and Yorkshire Branch 6tph.

I do know how off topic this is now, but it does serve some very nice purpouses as a service provision.

3tph for Liverpool...
2tph to Preston

And numerous re-opened journey opportunities for direct services to London, using splitting services on HS2.

Anyway, cut away

 

[172212]

I'm sorry, but this is a terrible idea. They operate no regional services south of Carlisle at the moment, why would you want to create all that operational mess with running a service to Liverpool?

I don't know, maybe because ScotRail are a scottish TOC
Who do you suggest takes it on then?

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't know, maybe because ScotRail are a scottish TOC

By that logic all services to Scotland operated by TPE, VT, XC and EC should be with Scotrail. Is that what you suggest?

Who do you suggest takes it on then?

TPE, XC or VT would be more logical for such a service to my mind. Though if I had my way TPE wouldn't be running any services to Scotland (the clues in the name ) so I'd stick them either with XC or with VT.

 

[172212]

By that logic all services to Scotland operated by TPE, VT, XC and EC should be with Scotrail. Is that what you suggest?



TPE, XC or VT would be more logical for such a service to my mind. Though if I had my way TPE wouldn't be running any services to Scotland (the clues in the name ) so I'd stick them either with XC or with VT.

No, I'm suggesting the service runs to Scotland, therefore it is a valid reason that ScotRail could take it on...

 

[ainsworth74]

No, I'm suggesting the service runs to Scotland, therefore it is a valid reason that ScotRail could take it on...

East Coast run services to Scotland, so perhaps Scotrail should run those as well? After all that's a valid reason for them to do so...

It seems totally illogical for Scotrail to run a service that's so far outside of their patch (as it were), surely it would make far more sense for a TOC that has staff and depots already in the area to run the service than to have Scotrail set up all of the above (or contract in others to do the work for them)?

 

[172212]

East Coast run services to Scotland, so perhaps Scotrail should run those as well? After all that's a valid reason for them to do so...

It seems totally illogical for Scotrail to run a service that's so far outside of their patch (as it were), surely it would make far more sense for a TOC that has staff and depots already in the area to run the service than to have Scotrail set up all of the above (or contract in others to do the work for them)?

My point stands, the reason I suggested ScotRail was because they were a scottish TOC. I'm not suggesting anything, I was suggesting that it was a valid point, which I stand by. For example, London Midland operate in Liverpool, but they are located in London and the Midlands, period.

 

[ainsworth74]

My point stands, the reason I suggested ScotRail was because they were a scottish TOC. I'm not suggesting anything, I was suggesting that it was a valid point, which I stand by.

You can stand by you point from now until the end of time but it won't change the fact that it's illogical.

For example, London Midland operate in Liverpool, but they are located in London and the Midlands, period.

The key difference being that Liverpool isn't exactly a long way outside of their more natural stomping ground. From Crewe it's three quarters of an hour to Liverpool a round trip which is easily doable by one driver/guard. Though I suppose that's not really in the Midlands so if we take Birmingham New Street then Liverpool is still only one hour and forty-odd minutes away again a round trip doable by one train crew (both of the above are train crew depots).

Meanwhile for Scotrail to run from Edinburgh to Liverpool (I'm not sure of depot locations for Scotrail but they ain't gonna have one at Carstairs so it's going to have to be Edinburgh I'd have thought) would be more like four hours (possibly a bit more). That's a long long way outside of their area and far more than Liverpool is for LM. So you're into having to set up a brand spanking new train crew depot or contracting in other TOC/FOC staff to run the services and of course you're going to need to pay someone to make use of their stabling facilities for you trains as well. It simply isn't logical for Scotrail to run such a service.

 

[172212]

You can stand by you point from now until the end of time but it won't change the fact that it's illogical.



The key difference being that Liverpool isn't exactly a long way outside of their more natural stomping ground. From Crewe it's three quarters of an hour to Liverpool a round trip which is easily doable by one driver/guard. Though I suppose that's not really in the Midlands so if we take Birmingham New Street then Liverpool is still only one hour and forty-odd minutes away again a round trip doable by one train crew (both of the above are train crew depots).

Meanwhile for Scotrail to run from Edinburgh to Liverpool (I'm not sure of depot locations for Scotrail but they ain't gonna have one at Carstairs so it's going to have to be Edinburgh I'd have thought) would be more like four hours (possibly a bit more). That's a long long way outside of their area and far more than Liverpool is for LM. So you're into having to set up a brand spanking new train crew depot or contracting in other TOC/FOC staff to run the services and of course you're going to need to pay someone to make use of their stabling facilities for you trains as well. It simply isn't logical for Scotrail to run such a service.

I can't be bothered to argue with you any longer. I just put my point across that ScotRail could take the route on, which I don't see a problem, also I was stating that there are TOCs that operate well outside of their locations, take the cambrian line for instance

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Eh, Cambrian line? The one right in the middle of Wales run by the TOC that runs 98% of the services in that country with about four traincrew depots on the line? How on earth is that a comparison, if anything that's totally normal!

 

[172212]

Eh, Cambrian line? The one right in the middle of Wales run by the TOC that runs 98% of the services in that country with about four traincrew depots on the line? How on earth is that a comparison, if anything that's totally normal!

I'm sorry, but doesn't the cambrian line terminate at Birmingham International, 3/4 hours away from Wales!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Closer to two but yes. Don't forget the ATW hub and staff depot at Shrewsbury though ensures that staff are only about 90 minutes away from their depot, which is actually relatively short compared to some!

 

[172212]

I think either ScotRail or CrossCountry should take it on, I'm not sure if the whole line is electrified, so voyagers would do a good job. Would be an interesting one to see

 

[ainsworth74]

I just put my point across that ScotRail could take the route on

And so far the only reason you've given for Scotrail to run the service is that it runs to Scotland. This, however, is surely a fairly weak point seeing as there are plenty of other services that run to/from Scotland that aren't operated by Scotrail? Why should this one be any different?

which I don't see a problem

Really? You can't see the problems that would be entailed by trying to set up a service that is so far outside of a TOCs normal realm of operation? You don't see the problems that would be entailed by having to establish a totally new train crew depot far outside of Scotland? You don't see the problems that could arise in trying to locate a stabling location for the rolling stock? You don't see even a single problem? Then surely you have solutions to two problems I've outlined so far?

Though I guess I won't get a response to any of these questions...

 

[172212]

And so far the only reason you've given for Scotrail to run the service is that it runs to Scotland. This, however, is surely a fairly weak point seeing as there are plenty of other services that run to/from Scotland that aren't operated by Scotrail? Why should this one be any different?



Really? You can't see the problems that would be entailed by trying to set up a service that is so far outside of a TOCs normal realm of operation? You don't see the problems that would be entailed by having to establish a totally new train crew depot far outside of Scotland? You don't see the problems that could arise in trying to locate a stabling location for the rolling stock? You don't see even a single problem? Then surely you have solutions to two problems I've outlined so far?

Though I guess I won't get a response to any of these questions...

I stand by my point about ScotRail taking on the service, Arriva trains Wales travel to as far as Swansea to operate their services, so I see need reason why ScotRail can't operate from Edinburgh

 

[Liam]

I stand by my point about ScotRail taking on the service, Arriva trains Wales travel to as far as Swansea to operate their services, so I see need reason why ScotRail can't operate from Edinburgh

ATW operate well beyond Swansea. I also fail to see your point regarding Scotrail operating to Liverpool. Even the Newcastle-Carlisle-Glasgow Sevices are operated by Northern drivers and guards between Newcastle and Carlisle.

 

[ainsworth74]

Arriva trains Wales travel to as far as Swansea to operate their services

Even if they don't get relived half way through (and I wouldn't be surprised to find that they are seeing as we're in the middle of Wales and there are plenty of depots around) I would be even more amazed if they took another three hour long service straight back out again, which is what would be required if the Liverpool service were based at Edinburgh. Perhaps you should consider that East Coast that operate services of over four hours (in other words around the same length as this prospective service) and have crew depots at London and Edinburgh (as well as others such as Newcastle a mid point station), in other words at each end of their main long distance service. If they could do it with one depot don't you think they would?

so I see need reason why ScotRail can't operate from Edinburgh

Only if you ignore logic, common sense and what happens else where on the railway when dealing with long distance services.