My idea - "bus-style" operation on branch lines

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Rather than try to defend the patronage of the line why don't you answer the question of whether you would support the replacement of services by buses if those services were deemed to be loss making?

So presumably your answer is yes, unless you're like that member of the House of Lords who backed fracking but only if it was done in the North East of England (well away from his area.)

I am not discussing line patronage as such, but making the point of why the Pacer fleet were first so introduced. Despite the fact that lines to both Macclesfield and Wilmslow pass through some rural scenery when our own county of Cheshire East hove into view, the areas of Adlington, Prestbury and Styal are all sought after areas by the well-heeled upper middle classes who commute to Manchester on main lines and not some rural branch line bywater of the style of the Garstang and Knott End Railway and the Preston and Longridge Railway which both succumbed to reality, of which I care not a jot.

If you wish to cite an omnibus or coach service to serve commuters from those types of area, I will ask if you do remember the Hale Barns executive service that once ran from there to Manchester with coffee and the better broadsheets available. Horses (thoroughbred no doubt) for courses does so apply.

 

[Busaholic]

That's the only line I can find with the name, but then the post wouldn't make sense. I wonder if the OP made a typing error, perhaps predictive text came up with 'Winkle', I suspect it's a reference to Wimbledon - Croydon.

It must have been. A bit like GOBLIN in that the powers-that-be didn't want passengers to know about the service, so never publicised it beyond the statutory minimum, gave a service interval useless for turn-up-and-go but also not clockface, ensure the stations were as unpalatable as possible to ordinary people, as opposed to enthusiasts, and even if you weren't dissuaded by all this, cancel journeys because of 'staff shortage' i.e. every journey for the next four hours. That was the reality of Wimbledon to West Croydon in latter Southern Region days and there had never been a direct bus connection for reasons I've never quite got to the bottom of - I suspect because Tooting to Croydon had been trolleybus, Tooting to Wimbledon tram and the bus dept. didn't see it as their place to provide a service.

 

[northwichcat]

I am not discussing line patronage as such, but making the point of why the Pacer fleet were first so introduced. Despite the fact that lines to both Macclesfield and Wilmslow pass through some rural scenery when our own county of Cheshire East hove into view, the areas of Adlington, Prestbury and Styal are all sought after areas by the well-heeled upper middle classes who commute to Manchester on main lines and not some rural branch line bywater of the style of the Garstang and Knott End Railway and the Preston and Longridge Railway which both succumbed to reality, of which I care not a jot.

If you wish to cite an omnibus or coach service to serve commuters from those types of area, I will ask if you do remember the Hale Barns executive service that once ran from there to Manchester with coffee and the better broadsheets available. Horses (thoroughbred no doubt) for courses does so apply.

You may or may not be aware that the buses D&G Bus normally use on the 88 Altrincham-Hale Barnes-Wilmslow-Mobberley-Knutsford service are usually 13 reg buses with leather seats and wi-fi. They are arguably better than most of the trains Northern have so arguing the passengers are too posh to travel by bus presumably means they are also too posh to board a Northern service.

 

[Bevan Price]

May I introduce the matter of the Leigh Guided Busway that runs on a very good service frequency and its modern "Vantage" liveried double-deck fleet of buses that run on the line of the former heavy rail Tyldesley loop line then down the East Lancashire Road with a number of bus lane sections, that is much newer than the Cambridge Guided Busway. The V1 service runs to Leigh bus station and the V2 runs into Atherton. Plans are already afoot for the introduction of the V3 service from Leigh to Manchester Royal Infirmary.

My wife and I went on both the V1 and V2 services recently and found the seating comfortable and the windows offering excellent viewing.

Yes, the busway does seem to have attracted more passengers onto the buses - but how many more would have been attracted by a high frequency train or tram service ? The busway is at the "quiet" end of the route, but buses use ordinary roads at the Salford / Manchester end of the route, and can be painfully slow - some peak hour jourmeys are allowed over 60 minutes - over twice the journey time that was possible by train - over 100 years ago.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, the busway does seem to have attracted more passengers onto the buses - but how many more would have been attracted by a high frequency train or tram service ? The busway is at the "quiet" end of the route, but buses use ordinary roads at the Salford / Manchester end of the route, and can be painfully slow - some peak hour jourmeys are allowed over 60 minutes - over twice the journey time that was possible by train - over 100 years ago.

I noticed quite a number of bus lines when I was on the East Lancashire Road section inwards into Salford that certainly assisted matters.

There was never the remotest change of the Tyldesley loop line being opened once more and with regards to tram provision, you must remember the lines that TfGM were committed to in that same time period of the construction of the Leigh Guided Busway. The V1 and V2 services run to a high frequency when you consider they are timetabled in between each other, so from Manchester to the Tyldesley park and ride, you have services operation on a 7/8 minute headway, which the train never remotely achieved.

 

[bluenoxid]

Yes, the busway does seem to have attracted more passengers onto the buses - but how many more would have been attracted by a high frequency train or tram service ? The busway is at the "quiet" end of the route, but buses use ordinary roads at the Salford / Manchester end of the route, and can be painfully slow - some peak hour jourmeys are allowed over 60 minutes - over twice the journey time that was possible by train - over 100 years ago.

Depends if they had the money to deliver a tram or train and would the existing rail/tram system be able to accept the 4-6 and more per hour vehicles coming off this route.

 

[philthetube]

How many level crossings are there on the St Albans branch currently?

only one, but the following also needs to be taken into account in this plan

Terminus stations, the driver will have to stand and wait for all to alight then close the doors,change ends, open up train and log in ticket machine. This will not be possible to do while passengers are boarding.

Allow people to board the train, only using one door, wailting for people to put down luggage etc before finding ticket, (or not) from pockets, handbags etc.

At every stop watch people off before others board, probably through narrower doors also checking and selling tickets etc.

Operate disabled ramps etc.

There is currently 14 mins turnround time per round trip available

 

[HSTEd]

Terminus stations, the driver will have to stand and wait for all to alight then close the doors,change ends, open up train and log in ticket machine. This will not be possible to do while passengers are boarding.

If he uses a portable ticket machine can't he simply leave it logged in and carry it from one end to the other as required?

 

[randyrippley]

I am not discussing line patronage as such, but making the point of why the Pacer fleet were first so introduced. Despite the fact that lines to both Macclesfield and Wilmslow pass through some rural scenery when our own county of Cheshire East hove into view, the areas of Adlington, Prestbury and Styal are all sought after areas by the well-heeled upper middle classes who commute to Manchester on main lines and not some rural branch line bywater of the style of the Garstang and Knott End Railway and the Preston and Longridge Railway which both succumbed to reality, of which I care not a jot.

If you wish to cite an omnibus or coach service to serve commuters from those types of area, I will ask if you do remember the Hale Barns executive service that once ran from there to Manchester with coffee and the better broadsheets available. Horses (thoroughbred no doubt) for courses does so apply.

Can I just point out that there are plans to reopen part of the Preston and Longridge railway with just such as low-cost vehicle as has been suggested earlier
Lets hope they get the fireproofing sorted out this time.........remember what happened when they let it loose in Blackpool
r

 

[philthetube]

you could but bearing in mind the speed of available portable machines you would have to go back to the drawing board, in any case you are probably saving 2 mins where you need 20

 

[Phil.]

I remember in about 1992 commuting on the West Croydon to Wimbledon line - usually a 2-EPB iirc. A rather infrequent service and hardly any passengers. A rail line and service no one wanted to run it seemed.

This line then became part of the Croydon Tramlink network circa 2000 and passenger numbers have increased dramatically. In the past year (2016) the line has had a much needed capacity enhancement - some doubling towards the Wimbledon end and a second platform added at Wimbledon.

So in approximately twenty years this line has gone from one that might as well be closed to one that is bursting at the seams. Each tram is full and standing and probably carries as many passengers as the solitary 2-EPB that plied the route *could have*.

A good business will look at the potential for growth and then, *if appropriate*, make investments to secure that growth. Not all businesses are like that - some are cynical and would not grow a business especially if they have enough on their plate already.

What helped in that case were two things.
The number of extra stops that were built. One problem that heavy rail continues to have is the distance between the town it purports to serve and the station.
The tram now runs between Wimbledon and either Beckenham/Elmers End and New Addington. This means that it has become a really useful link, something that a service formed of a grotty little 2-EPB set could never be.
I too used to commute on that bit of line for a while between Merton Park and West Croydon.

 

[MarkyT]

What helped in that case were two things.
The number of extra stops that were built. One problem that heavy rail continues to have is the distance between the town it purports to serve and the station.
The tram now runs between Wimbledon and either Beckenham/Elmers End and New Addington. This means that it has become a really useful link, something that a service formed of a grotty little 2-EPB set could never be.
I too used to commute on that bit of line for a while between Merton Park and West Croydon.

I took a ride on the route only once for the novelty just before it closed as heavy rail. It was infrequent with one of those awkward 45 minute interval services where as a casual user you could never recall what minutes past the hour it ran at any particular time of day.

Although there were extra stops introduced as a tram, the route wasn't diverted from the segregated alignment along the old route so remained relatively fast and direct between the major centres. While the access benefits are compelling, much street running either shared with road traffic or in slow pedestrian dominated areas risks extending journey time to become no better than buses. I recall Manchester Metrolink's Eccles line was criticised for this at its extremities although times between the City centre and the Mediacity area are pretty good. Croydon tramlink seems to have got the balance about right in this respect.

 

[stut]

A lot of the Danish branch lines seem to do well under this model - a bunch of Coradia LINT trains, some even with street running at points, decent frequencies and pretty well used.

 

[Chester1]

I noticed quite a number of bus lines when I was on the East Lancashire Road section inwards into Salford that certainly assisted matters.

There was never the remotest change of the Tyldesley loop line being opened once more and with regards to tram provision, you must remember the lines that TfGM were committed to in that same time period of the construction of the Leigh Guided Busway. The V1 and V2 services run to a high frequency when you consider they are timetabled in between each other, so from Manchester to the Tyldesley park and ride, you have services operation on a 7/8 minute headway, which the train never remotely achieved.

I think the cost of reopening the line was estimated as about £400m, a light rail line £200-250m and the guided bus way £60-70m (cost nearly £70m). I agree there was no chance of a rail reopening, the guided bus service is a huge step forward and puts Leigh and Atherton within a reasonable and affordable public transport commute into the centre of Manchester. The related city centre and Oxford Road works will further improve journey times later this year. Guided bus ways are much better than a failed reopening campaign.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Bus-style operations on bracnch lines? A similar thing was tried by British Railways in the 1950s.

http://www.railcar.co.uk/type/ac-cars-railbus/scottish-services-begin

I like the idea of stopping at level crossings to pick up passengers and that new "stations" consisted of a few paving slabs! How much does it cost to open even a basic staton today?
A modern version of the railcar would have to have a lift platform, in place of fold-down steps, for accessibility.

 

[The Ham]

I think the cost of reopening the line was estimated as about £400m, a light rail line £200-250m and the guided bus way £60-70m (cost nearly £70m). I agree there was no chance of a rail reopening, the guided bus service is a huge step forward and puts Leigh and Atherton within a reasonable and affordable public transport commute into the centre of Manchester. The related city centre and Oxford Road works will further improve journey times later this year. Guided bus ways are much better than a failed reopening campaign.

When Hampshire looked at the options to provide a rail link to Borden it was found that it was better to use heavy rail than light rail as there would have been additional depot costs with using light rail. Add to that the extra benefits of through services and light rail looked a very poor value option.

As such light rail only starts to be viable if it is part of a small network and not just an individual line.

 

[stanley T]

It is frequency and convenient stops that matter, not whether it is tram, heavy rail, or even guided bus. Remember when the North London Line was threatened with closure, inconceivable now that it is part of the Overground and busy all day long, yet heavy rail. A case in point is Stourbridge Jn - Walsall, with connections into Birmingham and Wolverhampton at Dudley Port and Wednesbury. Given that freight uses the line, has to be heavy rail. 4 trains per hour is the minimum frequency that raises usage, don't need to look at the timetable

 

[Bletchleyite]

With 4tph I certainly would still look at the timetable - why stand in the freezing cold for 14 minutes and 59 seconds when you can sit on your sofa and time your arrival at the station perfectly?

Your overall point does still stand, though, and if it's pure regular-interval with no exceptions like Merseyrail you just need to remember 4 sets of "minutes past each hour" and which, say, 2 of the 4 still run at quiet times like early mornings and on Sundays. Not too hard compared with knowing a specific timetable.

Indeed, I've long taken the view for the same reason that clockface hourly is actually vastly better than odd frequencies like every 45 minutes even if that causes a unit and crew to sit idle unnecessarily for quite long breaks. Though I think once you get below hourly the benefit of that approach reduces significantly.