Moving EMUs & DMUs

[Waverley125]

so we have a lot of wiring to be going on, and new stock on already electrified lines. So what will be freed up...

East Anglia: 317s (replaced by 379s)
FCC: 317s, 319s & 365s (by 377s, eventually)
FSR: 158s, 322s (by 380s)
FGW: 165s/166s, HSTs
EMT: 222s, HSTs
Northern: 150s

so...

150s-to other NT services, to replace all remaining pacers
165s, 166s-elsewhere in the southwest to replace 150s on med. distance, which in turn replace pacers
158s-to medium distance services nationally
319s-electrified northwest lines
365s-yorkshire wired services (more wiring) plus Edinburgh-Newcastle stopper
317s-as above
322s-as above
222s-7 car formations to strengthen XC services & long distance other
HSTs-refurbished (ala Chiltern's plans) other long distance services

 

[tbtc]

Are you talking "definite electrifications" or "wishlist" (hence including the MML/ Edinburgh - Newcastle "stopper)?

Regardless of the fact that the EMU services may well mean more frequent services in Lancashire, it should be possible to work out the number of Pacers/ Sprinters/ 185s that will be "free" from the planned wiring.

Similarly, it should be possible to work out how many 165/166s are freed by the Thames Valley wiring (and can then free Pacers/ Sprinters further west).

Also, there's the 158s free when Scotrail get the central belt electrified.

Has anyone done that maths?

(I'd rather avoid getting into worrying about the number of units that would be freed if the government electrified lines they've not even announced electrification of, just yet)

 

[Waverley125]

well 5 322s for defnite

 

[A0]

so we have a lot of wiring to be going on, and new stock on already electrified lines. So what will be freed up...

East Anglia: 317s (replaced by 379s)
FCC: 317s, 319s & 365s (by 377s, eventually)
FSR: 158s, 322s (by 380s)
FGW: 165s/166s, HSTs
EMT: 222s, HSTs
Northern: 150s

so...

150s-to other NT services, to replace all remaining pacers
165s, 166s-elsewhere in the southwest to replace 150s on med. distance, which in turn replace pacers
158s-to medium distance services nationally
319s-electrified northwest lines
365s-yorkshire wired services (more wiring) plus Edinburgh-Newcastle stopper
317s-as above
322s-as above
222s-7 car formations to strengthen XC services & long distance other
HSTs-refurbished (ala Chiltern's plans) other long distance services

Whether it's actual or planned electrifications, I reckon you've got a few things wrong.

East Anglia will probably keep the 317s and use them to replace the 315s which will go for scrap.

FCC also still has alot of 317s (on GN), either keep on FCC or pass to EA.

FCC 365s - probably be kept by FCC. There won't be enough capacity to send all GN services via Thameslink so some AC only EMUs will survive. These might be used to displace the 317s on FCC.

HSTs - highly unlikely to be refurbed when they are displaced from the MML or GWML that's at least 10 years away by which time they'll be 40 years old and up for replacement in their own right.

165s / 166s - I'm pretty sure these have got a fairly restricted route availability so can't just "go anywhere". I'd reckon on those being up for scrap when displaced on the basis they'll be 'non standard'.

You also missed the likely replacement of 90s and DVTs from EA mainline - also scrap candidates as there will be a lack of suitable work for them.

 

[DjU]

so we have a lot of wiring to be going on, and new stock on already electrified lines. So what will be freed up...

East Anglia: 317s (replaced by 379s)
FCC: 317s, 319s & 365s (by 377s, eventually)
FSR: 158s, 322s (by 380s)
FGW: 165s/166s, HSTs
EMT: 222s, HSTs
Northern: 150s

so...

Well the first problem is not all of that is what is due to happen!

317s are NOT being replaced - the 379 WILL take over the 317/8 and /9 current duties BUT the 317s will stay on the West Anglia lines and strengthen services - the 379 are merely additional units not replacements.

As it stands only the 319s are confirmed to be displaced on FCC and they aren't being replaced by 377s the 377s are currently complementing the 319s
Both the 319s AND 377s will be replaced by the Thameslink Programme next-generation EMU - and that's if the fleet ever gets ordered!

The 365 could still end up staying.

The 322's at Scotrail are actually Sub-leased to them from the Greater Anglia franchise therefore when the ScotRail lease ends they go back to them.

 

[Voyager 2093]

The 365s will definantly stay on the GN Lines, just to add when you talk about FCC, there are two different lines, The WAGN Lines and TL Lines. So it unlikely both lines will have new stock replacing them.

As stated before the TL side of the line will have the new generation EMUs if they are ever built.

The FGW 165/166s will stay for a couple of years, the only thinkable move for that fleet of trains is to transfer them to the Wessex Line which has been discussed before and a minority being transferred to Chiltern Railways.

Regarding the MML electrification I myself cant see that happening for now so the 222s and HSTs will be staying put.

There has been talk of the 319s moving to TPE around the Liverpool and Manchester area.

317s will stay put to strengthen NXEA services.

The 158s from Scotrail could move back down south to the Wessex Lines.

HSTs to Chiltern Rail I dont see that happening. The Term HST is an Acronym for the word High Speed Train and the trains Chiltern are getting are High Speed 125mph capable Class 67 locomotives that will commence service in 2012

 

[A0]

I wouldn't be totally surprised if FCC did a deal to keep the 319s if they were being displaced from TL, moving them to GN to release the 317s.

Advantage: 319s are newer, dual voltage so could be used via TL - don't know if they're cleared to work Drayton Pk - Moorgate - anyone? - if they were then there would be another advantage to retaining them as they could be used to begin replacement of the 313s.

317s could be moved north where AC only units would be required.

 

[Voyager 2093]

317s could move north but for the journeys they will work with TPE a 319 is a much better option.

 

[90019]

317s could move north but for the journeys they will work with TPE a 319 is a much better option.

Why?

The interiors are pretty much the same, as are the doors, and both are capable of 100mph.

 

[DjU]

Also as an addendum to my post.

8 of the 158 units at ScotRail are sub-leased from Northern - they were due to return this year but the lease has been extended to 2014. If there was enough units released these would surely go first. Plus any other surplus would probably be used to stop the need for the Mk2 hauled set on the Fife Line.

 

[tbtc]

Also as an addendum to my post.

8 of the 158 units at ScotRail are sub-leased from Northern - they were due to return this year but the lease has been extended to 2014

I didn't know the lease had been extended - can't believe Northern would agree to this, so must be DFT meddling again?

I thought these 158s would be freed up (or, some of them) when the Edinburgh - Bathgate service goes over to EMU operation, so not sure what ScotRail's justification for keeping them is

(also, bear in mind that Northern could do with these for when the 180s potentially move to the ECML)

 

[Voyager 2093]

In my opinion a Class 319 would be a better option. I know 317s were used on the WCML in the 80s. But also 319s are newer than 317s so that speaks for itself.

 

[O L Leigh]

Ah yes. I can see it all now.

It's just a shame that being an armchair expert takes no account of what is actually going to happen out there on the real railway.

As for the relative merits of Cl319's over Cl317's, I really think we're splitting hairs. The newest Cl319 may be 9 years younger than the oldest Cl317, but the first of the Cl319's pretty much followed the last of the Cl317's off the BREL York production line within a 12 month period. But then the technology and construction methods are almost exactly the same. A Cl319 is nothing more than a dual-voltage Cl317 with a different cab and some internal trim differences.

O L Leigh

 

[Daimler]

In my opinion a Class 319 would be a better option. I know 317s were used on the WCML in the 80s. But also 319s are newer than 317s so that speaks for itself.

:roll: According to that 'logic', Pacers are better than HSTs. And they're only newer by at most nine years, at at least less than one.
They're very similar trains, but as A0wen has pointed out already, the 319s have the added advantage (for remaining in the South East) of being dual voltage.

I thought the initial plan was for the 319s to make their way over to the Great Western, anyway?

EDIT: O L Leigh beat me to it with regards to 319 v. 317!

 

[DjU]

I thought the initial plan was for the 319s to make their way over to the Great Western, anyway?

The 'plan' is for them to go to both the Great Western and the Manchester / Liverpool areas

There are 86 of them, neither scheme requires the full complement on its own.

 

[tbtc]

the 319s have the added advantage (for remaining in the South East) of being dual voltage

...could come in handy for integration with Merseyrail?

Or is there a reason they could't be cascaded to replace the 50*s?

 

[Voyager 2093]

I was going to say that they could come in handy for the Merseyrail Lines but had a second thought as I dont know if they would fit in the tunnels.

Does anyone know the height of a 319 in comparison to a 508.

 

[Aictos]

Ah yes. I can see it all now.

It's just a shame that being an armchair expert takes no account of what is actually going to happen out there on the real railway.

As for the relative merits of Cl319's over Cl317's, I really think we're splitting hairs. The newest Cl319 may be 9 years younger than the oldest Cl317, but the first of the Cl319's pretty much followed the last of the Cl317's off the BREL York production line within a 12 month period. But then the technology and construction methods are almost exactly the same. A Cl319 is nothing more than a dual-voltage Cl317 with a different cab and some internal trim differences.

O L Leigh

Well Said!

Now as far as I am aware, the following is what was intended to happen:

FCC

319s and 377s work the Thameslink route until and IF the new proposed NXEMUs come into service.
313s to work the Great Northern route until they get replaced eventually.
317s, 321s and 365s to work the Great Northern route until and IF the proposed NXEMUs come into service.

East Anglia

317s to stay where they are to extend West Anglia services to 12 cars with the 379s just being used to boost the capacity and not replace the 317s.
315s to work the locals until they like the 313s get replaced eventually.

Great Western

Thames Turbos to work Cornwall and Devon services instead of Pacers or Sprinters.
HSTs to stay where they are.
Thames services operated by 319s instead of 165s/166s.

Midland Mainline

222s and HSTs to stay where they are.

A lot of the proposed cascading depends on two large factors which are electrification of certain routes and the introduction of the NXEMUs for both FCC routes.

 

[ChrisCooper]

The Merseyrail tunnels can't be that tight as 66s fit down there for engineering trains, so I would assume anything else could.

It does make me laugh at times the "newer is better" argument, and sadly it's not always just the armchair experts who do it. Where I work we've just got some new vehicles and there is quite an argument going on between those (most management) who want to see them replace the oldest currently in the fleet, and those (mostly drivers and mechanics) who want to see some newer but less reliable and well liked vehicles replaced. Where passengers are involved, they rarely care or even know about age and are more concerned about reliability (or percieved reliablity, a particular type can easily get a reputation for reliability or unreliability that is underserved) and condition. Even enthusiasts arn't obsessed with age, even if other factors tend to make older more interesting (rarity is a big thing).

 

[jopsuk]

The Stansted Express 317s are due to be retained on the West Anglia to strengthen services (including some 12 car sevices) aren't they? The 379s are supposed to be a dedicated fleet for the airport services (barring a couple of pork barrel specials each day to Cambridge to make politicians happy)

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Absolutely correct jopsuk. Its a shame really, as most of the 317's are very tired now.

There will be some 12 car services - STEX and Cambridge services. Platform 1 at Stansted is being lenghtened to accomodate 16 coaches.

Hertford East services (and all the inner West Anglia services - Chingford, Enfield Town & Cheshunt via Seven Sisters) will stay 8 coaches as the only stations on the Hertford line to receieve platform extensions is Cheshunt and Broxbourne.

 

[ukrob]

...could come in handy for integration with Merseyrail?

Or is there a reason they could't be cascaded to replace the 50*s?

I was going to say that they could come in handy for the Merseyrail Lines but had a second thought as I dont know if they would fit in the tunnels.

Does anyone know the height of a 319 in comparison to a 508.

They will not lengthen numerous underground stations at huge expense to accommodate handed down stock which is only ten years younger.

Nor will they run more four car services in lieu of six car services, nor are they going to start changing the 319s to three car units - so I would say to say that Merseyrail could use them as replacements for 507/8s is a total non-starter.

Running onto Merseyrail tracks they could do, but not as a fleet replacement.

 

[87015]

The Stansted Express 317s are due to be retained on the West Anglia to strengthen services (including some 12 car sevices) aren't they? The 379s are supposed to be a dedicated fleet for the airport services (barring a couple of pork barrel specials each day to Cambridge to make politicians happy)

All depends what the new franchise bidders want to do now, the only thing set in stone is 379s on the Stansteds, but that doesn't need 30 units.

Personally, I think that Crossrail will see the end of the 317s. It will release a lot of 315s to take over all of the WA Inner workings (incl Hertford) and a fairly small follow on 379 order will see off the rest of the Cambridge line workings.

 

[ChrisCooper]

They will not lengthen numerous underground stations at huge expense to accommodate handed down stock which is only ten years younger.

Nor will they run more four car services in lieu of six car services, nor are they going to start changing the 319s to three car units - so I would say to say that Merseyrail could use them as replacements for 507/8s is a total non-starter.

Running onto Merseyrail tracks they could do, but not as a fleet replacement.

Would it even be possible (without a lot of work) to cut the 319s down to 3 coaches. Unlike most similar EMUs, the TSOL seems to have a lot of equipment underneath. Presumably also why they are a tonne heavier than the DTs compared to the 321s where the TSOLs are a tonne lighter. I can only imagine they have auxiliary power converters for when running on 750v DC (on AC a range of voltages can be taken off the transformer, then rectified if needed, on DC you're stuck with 750v DC unless you have motor alternators or static converters, or wire things in series). Whatever it is, it would need to be moved under the DTs along with all the other stuff (that family all carry batteries and compressors under the TSOL where provided). Oviously a 3 car 317 or 321 would be simple enough, it's basically a 318 or 320. Presume they have the batteries and compressors under one of the DTs, like on the earlier EMUs (up to 312).

 

[O L Leigh]

All depends what the new franchise bidders want to do now, the only thing set in stone is 379s on the Stansteds, but that doesn't need 30 units.

No, but not far short.

Assuming all services are run as 8 cars, the StanEx requires 18 units in service at any one time. Bump them up to 12 cars and the requirement is 27 units. Then you have maintenance spares and so on.

Personally, I think that Crossrail will see the end of the 317s. It will release a lot of 315s to take over all of the WA Inner workings (incl Hertford) and a fairly small follow on 379 order will see off the rest of the Cambridge line workings.

The WA route unit diagrams are not that conveniently simple. Besides, it would take more than just a small follow-on order of Cl379's to see off the Cl317's from the Cambridges.

O L Leigh
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would it even be possible (without a lot of work) to cut the 319s down to 3 coaches. Unlike most similar EMUs, the TSOL seems to have a lot of equipment underneath.

The big problem is that EMU's from Cl319 upwards have the main air compressor and air tanks under the TOSL. Therefore they cannot easily be knocked down to 3 cars.

O L Leigh