MML Services following electrification to Nottingham

[Haywain]

And this links the previous comment about airport links - surely the occasional service to / from Sheffield, Nottingham and Leicester could provide a stop at Luton Airport rather than insisting on a change at Kettering with the associated hanging around and lugging bags on & off trains?

It also ignores that Luton has a bigger population (nearly 300,000) than anywhere else on the MML that isn't a city as well as having the airport.

 

[Bartsimho]

It also ignores that Luton has a bigger population (nearly 300,000) than anywhere else on the MML that isn't a city as well as having the airport.

I do wonder how much time saving the 810's on wires have over the 222's on diesel for the two stops.

The 360's take 10 mins from Leagrave to Harpenden while the 222's take 5 mins but those extra 5 mins might be made up in Accel and Decel from the other stops.

And everything would be stopping at both so it'd probably simplify pathing a small amount and increase usable capacity

 

[Dr Hoo]

Something like that, and then you have the standing around at Leicester for the second change to take into consideration. After all, the first thing you see at Kettering is a Sheffield train hurtling through, knowing full well that you will be on one half an hour later.

Fair enough. I had read your post as suggesting that there was around half an hour at each of Kettering and Leicester, rather than around 30 minutes in total.

Living in the Hope Valley and having to circulate via Sheffield or Manchester I am well used to individual 'connections' of around an hour. E.g. Hope Valley arrive Sheffield xx:05, local Northern service to Nottingham via Dronfield, etc. leaves at xx:05.

 

[Bald Rick]

You don't travel from south of Kettering to Derby or Sheffield then. Half an hour or more standing around at Kettering and Leicester on the way is pretty bad.

I do it regularly, and I think the connections work well. Never missed one. (I‘m changing twice for Leicester / Nottingham, three times for Derby / Sheffield).

 

[Haywain]

I do it regularly, and I think the connections work well. Never missed one. (I‘m changing twice for Leicester / Nottingham, three times for Derby / Sheffield).

A journey half an hour shorter would be preferable.

 

[Bartsimho]

I do it regularly, and I think the connections work well. Never missed one. (I‘m changing twice for Leicester / Nottingham, three times for Derby / Sheffield).

Yeah but you work on the railways so know what you're doing more.

When going to a city. Especially one on the same line changing twice feels daunting. Any more than that is seen as unacceptable unless you are leaving from a very small station on the line especially with the perception and reality of reliability of trains especially for connections

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==



Maybe

1tph St Pancras - Luton Airport Parkway (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Luton (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Kettering - Leicester - Loughborough - Nottingham
1tph St Pancras - Luton Airport Parkway (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Luton (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Kettering - Market Harborough - Leicester - Loughborough - East Midlands Parkway - Beeston - Nottingham

1tph St Pancras - Kettering - Leicester - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield
1tph St Pancras - Kettering - Market Harborough - Leicester - Loughborough - East Midlands Parkway - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield

2tph St Pancras - St Albans City - Luton Airport Parkway - Luton - Bedford - Wellingborough - Kettering - Corby

 

[A S Leib]

Maybe

1tph St Pancras - Luton Airport Parkway (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Luton (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Kettering - Leicester - Loughborough - Nottingham
1tph St Pancras - Luton Airport Parkway (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Luton (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Kettering - Market Harborough - Leicester - Loughborough - East Midlands Parkway - Beeston - Nottingham

1tph St Pancras - Kettering - Leicester - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield
1tph St Pancras - Kettering - Market Harborough - Leicester - Loughborough - East Midlands Parkway - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield

2tph St Pancras - St Albans City - Luton Airport Parkway - Luton - Bedford - Wellingborough - Kettering - Corby

I'd prefer for Bedford rather than Luton Town to get the second Nottingham call south of Kettering; it's (slightly) easier to get to from the southern WCML and I suspect that will become even more the case if / when East West Rail leads to faster Bletchley – Bedford services. (Of course, there's going via Tamworth for southern WCML – Derby / Nottingham as well.)

 

[cle]

Luton Town probably doesn't need longer distance calls any more. LAP should become the singular express stop / railhead for the area. Better parking, more jobs and development nearby and of course, the airport.

The faster TL services are still the main service into London from Luton Town.

 

[Haywain]

Luton Town probably doesn't need longer distance calls any more. LAP should become the singular express stop / railhead for the area. Better parking, more jobs and development nearby and of course, the airport.

And yet still not where people live and not where the vast majority of local bus services go.

 

[A S Leib]

And yet still not where people live and not where the vast majority of local bus services go.

I know that there's been complaints about frequent changes needed to go between the southern and northern MML so both would be desirable for Luton, but there's 8 tph and three minutes between the Luton stations. Whichever Luton station gets intercity services, it wouldn't be difficult to reach from the other.

 

[Bartsimho]

Luton Town probably doesn't need longer distance calls any more. LAP should become the singular express stop / railhead for the area. Better parking, more jobs and development nearby and of course, the airport.

The faster TL services are still the main service into London from Luton Town.

I've but it so you can only go North with the Pick Up/Set Down restrictions like what is done on the WCML with Watford Junction

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==

I know that there's been complaints about frequent changes needed to go between the southern and northern MML so both would be desirable for Luton, but there's 8 tph and three minutes between the Luton stations. Whichever Luton station gets intercity services, it wouldn't be difficult to reach from the other.

I'd guess the Airport would get more passengers if it's north facing as many people need to get to and from Luton Airport and it's probably more than from Luton itself

 

[43074]

Yeah but you work on the railways so know what you're doing more.

When going to a city. Especially one on the same line changing twice feels daunting. Any more than that is seen as unacceptable unless you are leaving from a very small station on the line especially with the perception and reality of reliability of trains especially for connections

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==



Maybe

1tph St Pancras - Luton Airport Parkway (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Luton (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Kettering - Leicester - Loughborough - Nottingham
1tph St Pancras - Luton Airport Parkway (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Luton (Pick Up Only Down/Drop Off Only Up) - Kettering - Market Harborough - Leicester - Loughborough - East Midlands Parkway - Beeston - Nottingham

1tph St Pancras - Kettering - Leicester - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield
1tph St Pancras - Kettering - Market Harborough - Leicester - Loughborough - East Midlands Parkway - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield

2tph St Pancras - St Albans City - Luton Airport Parkway - Luton - Bedford - Wellingborough - Kettering - Corby

Why are you slowing down millions of journeys a year from Sheffield/Nottingham/Leicester to London for journeys at best done by a few thousand a year (= a handful a day?)

Even when Bedford and Luton Airport Parkway had hourly direct services all day to Leicester and Nottingham, about 95% of the demand was going to London or stations served by Thameslink. Maybe the service would be better balanced if Kettering had an hourly Sheffield call instead of a Nottingham, but that would mean a re-write for a small number of passengers in comparison to those who would lose faster London journey times.

 

[Bartsimho]

Why are you slowing down millions of journeys a year from Sheffield/Nottingham/Leicester to London for journeys at best done by a few thousand a year (= a handful a day?)

Even when Bedford and Luton Airport Parkway had hourly direct services all day to Leicester and Nottingham, about 95% of the demand was going to London or stations served by Thameslink. Maybe the service would be better balanced if Kettering had an hourly Sheffield call instead of a Nottingham, but that would mean a re-write for a small number of passengers in comparison to those who would lose faster London journey times.

As this is after Hypothetical Electrification I wonder how much time is saved by the better Acceleration and Deceleration at existing calls. This would be St Pancras, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Beeston and Nottingham based on the title. It might be the case that the better times there allow for extra stops which is turn would give a bit more resilience to the timetable

 

[43074]

As this is after Hypothetical Electrification I wonder how much time is saved by the better Acceleration and Deceleration at existing calls. This would be St Pancras, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Beeston and Nottingham based on the title. It might be the case that the better times there allow for extra stops which is turn would give a bit more resilience to the timetable

222s are pretty quick accelerating units themselves, so it would be no more than 30 seconds at best per stop depending on linespeed. That adds up to a minute or two over a Nottingham or Sheffield to London journey, which is extra resilience but certainly not enough time for extra calls.

 

[Mzzzs]

A hourly connect service to Leicester is what I would do after electrification in Leicester maybe half hourly. They don't have enough 360s anyway.

Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough and Leicester.

You want more people to travel by train then give them a choice of service/cost to use intercity or regional commuter also providing major things such as a airport with as many direct services to big cities to attract the people who were put off by having to change trains.

 

[miklcct]

Why are you slowing down millions of journeys a year from Sheffield/Nottingham/Leicester to London for journeys at best done by a few thousand a year (= a handful a day?)

Even when Bedford and Luton Airport Parkway had hourly direct services all day to Leicester and Nottingham, about 95% of the demand was going to London or stations served by Thameslink. Maybe the service would be better balanced if Kettering had an hourly Sheffield call instead of a Nottingham, but that would mean a re-write for a small number of passengers in comparison to those who would lose faster London journey times.

The reason that 95% of the demand goes to London is because the intermediate service is rubbish that people travel down on the M1 instead.

I strongly think that a good regional stopping service will create extra demand on rail by removing them from the M1.

A hourly connect service to Leicester is what I would do after electrification in Leicester maybe half hourly. They don't have enough 360s anyway.

Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough and Leicester.

You want more people to travel by train then give them a choice of service/cost to use intercity or regional commuter also providing major things such as a airport with as many direct services to big cities to attract the people who were put off by having to change trains.

My proposal is always that the Connect service to Leicester needs to run half-hourly, and the Corby service should be a Thameslink service. The regular off-peak pattern should be

• Connect to Leicester: St Pancras, St Albans, Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Bedford, Kettering, Market Harborough and Leicester.
• Thameslink to Corby: Three Bridges, ..., St Pancras, West Hampstead Thameslink, St Albans, all stations to Corby.

 

[43074]

The reason that 95% of the demand goes to London is because the intermediate service is rubbish that people travel down on the M1 instead.

I strongly think that a good regional stopping service will create extra demand on rail by removing them from the M1.

That figure is from when there was an hourly service from Luton Airport and Bedford etc to Leicester/Nottingham, which wasn't rubbish. Even the current service isn't that bad for the majority of journeys - every station south of Leicester is served half hourly, Leicester/Nottingham are within one change of Bedford/Luton/Luton Airport by changing at Kettering every half hour and the only journeys which need 2+ changes are to Derby and Sheffield which were comparitively small flows even when they were within 1 change at Leicester.

Luton and Bedford are economically much more focussed towards London and Milton Keynes than they are Leicester/Nottingham - sure there are some people who make those journeys but in comparison to London those flows are tiny. A "good regional stopping service" as you describe would cost the industry a ton of revenue and mostly carry fresh air. There isn't really an equivalent of Milton Keynes or Reading at the south end of the Midland Main Line, it is all about providing large towns with links to London and it does that well.

 

[miklcct]

There isn't really an equivalent of Milton Keynes or Reading at the south end of the Midland Main Line

It is called Bedford.

 

[A S Leib]

My proposal is always that the Connect service to Leicester needs to run half-hourly, and the Corby service should be a Thameslink service. The regular off-peak pattern should be

• Connect to Leicester: St Pancras, St Albans, Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Bedford, Kettering, Market Harborough and Leicester.
• Thameslink to Corby: Three Bridges, ..., St Pancras, West Hampstead Thameslink, St Albans, all stations to Corby.

I think Thameslink's unreliable enough and people from Peterborough and Northampton have enough complaints about speed / comfort of their non-Intercity London services that the Corby services are best left apart from Thameslink.

 

[Bald Rick]

The reason that 95% of the demand goes to London is because the intermediate service is rubbish that people travel down on the M1 instead.

I guess you weren’t here when the ‘slow’ Nottingham services did call at Lutons / Bedford / Wellingboro’ / Kettering, and there were some Sheffield services calling too. I used to catch them. Not many other people did. I was routinely one of about 5 people catching the 0730ish from Luton to Sheffield.

 

[43074]

It is called Bedford.

Nowhere near either the size or importance to justify stopping more long distance services though.

Milton Keynes or Reading have offices for large organisations with thousands of employees based there and are important centres in their own right, Bedford does not. Luton is a larger town plus obviously has the Airport but is nowhere near as productive to the economy as MK or Reading are, therefore doesn't stimulate the same sort of long distance travel demand.

 

[duffield]

Nowhere near either the size or importance to justify stopping more long distance services though.

Milton Keynes or Reading have offices for large organisations with thousands of employees based there and are important centres in their own right, Bedford does not. Luton is a larger town plus obviously has the Airport but is nowhere near as productive to the economy as MK or Reading are, therefore doesn't stimulate the same sort of long distance travel demand.

The good reason for stopping long distance services at Bedford is not for the town itself, it's for connections to the Thameslink terminus and (in future) EWR. If the electric services squeeze just enough minutes out for one more stop to be fitted into the paths, Bedford should be it (and yes, it needs an extra platform to make that stop practical).

 

[43074]

The good reason for stopping long distance services at Bedford is not for the town itself, it's for connections to the Thameslink terminus and (in future) EWR. If the electric services squeeze just enough minutes out for one more stop to be fitted into the paths, Bedford should be it (and yes, it needs an extra platform to make that stop practical).

I'm not convinced by the EWR argument - from Leicester and points north:
- Oxford is just as accessible via Birmingham New Street or direct from Derby and Sheffield.
- Milton Keynes is quicker via Tamworth or Nuneaton.
- Cambridge is direct from Leicester or with a change at Ely from Nottingham or Sheffield.

The places which will benefit from the East-West connectivity by changing at Bedford are those already served by EMR Connect and Thameslink. Arguably Luton Airport Parkway is a better interchange to Thameslink, most of the people changing at Bedford would likely be going there anyway.