Meeting Demand for Social Activities

[Bletchleyite]

I'd think you'd have a better time buying a couple hundred Yutong electric coaches to hold in a pool for events.

Rather than just run your events an hour earlier (i.e. finish 2200 instead of 2300)? Seems a rather pointlessly costly idea.

City centre residents would also thank you for moving the end of events to a more suitable time.

 

[Brubulus]

Rather than just run your events an hour earlier (i.e. finish 2200 instead of 2300)? Seems a rather pointlessly costly idea.

City centre residents would also thank you for moving the end of events to a more suitable time.

There must be a sound commercial reason for running events at the times that they run - not to mention the wider nightlife sector that, while operationally inconvenient, should be served.
The railway isn't run for its own convenience, it's to provide transportation, and that's why it receives subsidies.

 

[zwk500]

The railway isn't run for its own convenience, it's to provide transportation, and that's why it receives subsidies.

But there is a question about what level of subsidy is reasonable to provide in exchange for the service provided to the economy at large.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There must be a sound commercial reason for running events at the times that they run - not to mention the wider nightlife sector that, while operationally inconvenient, should be served.

The railway isn't likely to serve the nightclubbing type sector, that normally goes on all night - if anything it'll be on the first trains, not the last. Beyond that earlier out, earlier home is no great problem, largely because those sectors are more flexible - whereas a gig or football match has fixed (ish) start and end times.

The railway isn't run for its own convenience, it's to provide transportation, and that's why it receives subsidies.

Scheduled public transport requires a compromise between the railway operating a convenient service and those organising stuff to fit in with the compromise timetable. It isn't possible to perfectly serve every organiser's whim.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2025 ==

But there is a question about what level of subsidy is reasonable to provide in exchange for the service provided to the economy at large.

And also about sensible compromise and meeting in the middle. If last trains to regional destinations around Manchester (say) were at 2100 or earlier I'd be saying the railway has to do better, but with them being around 2230 I think there is scope for some "give and take" by event planners arranging their events to start and end a little earlier so these not-unreasonable times are workable.

 

[devon_belle]

I think there should be an aim to give all stations a 7-day, regular (hourly or at least two-hourly) service. Nights out are only part of leisure travel, I would guess that days out and weekend overnight stays are just as important.

For example, my local line (Dorking to Horsham) has no trains from about 6:30 pm Saturday until 6 am Monday, with a sparse bus service. This makes anything but an early day out to London impossible by public transport alone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For example, my local line (Dorking to Horsham) has no trains from about 6:30 pm Saturday until 6 am Monday, with a sparse bus service. This makes anything but an early day out to London impossible by public transport alone.

It's surprising that that line has an hourly service into the late evening on weekdays but nowt on Saturday. Having said that Ockley, Holmwood and Warnham, the only three stations served by that line but no other, make stations on the Settle-Carlisle and Conwy Valley look like a metropolis. Indeed I must admit to being surprised that line survived Beeching given how rural it is and given how the three stations together seem to serve a settlement little bigger than Betws-y-Coed and with far less (by which I mean "basically none bar the Ramblers") tourist demand.

 

[devon_belle]

It's surprising that that line has an hourly service into the late evening on weekdays but nowt on Saturday. Having said that Ockley, Holmwood and Warnham, the only three stations served by that line but no other, make stations on the Settle-Carlisle and Conwy Valley look like a metropolis. Indeed I must admit to being surprised that line survived Beeching given how rural it is and given how the three stations together seem to serve a settlement little bigger than Betws-y-Coed and with far less (by which I mean "basically none bar the Ramblers") tourist demand.

I am surprised too. At one stage it had 5 tph stopping in the peaks, then by the 1980s it only had a peak-time shuttle service. There must have been commuters, or MPs, using it. Perhaps it wasn't closed because of poor bus connections between the intermediate stations – diversionary purposes don't explain the shacks staying open, so I guess it's the buses.

However, similar nearby backwater stations like Betchworth (which has 1/5th Holmwood's passenger numbers) get 0.5tph even on a Sunday. I think there is potential from Holmwood, less so from Ockley and Warnham. The line also gets forgotten about often: on Monday the 8:30, 9:30, 10:30, 11:30, and 13:30 departures to London were cancelled. Mostly spun at Dorking. I've spoken at length about the line, we have a small thread on it: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/dorking-to-horsham-line-discussion.290105/.

 

[cle]

There must be a sound commercial reason for running events at the times that they run - not to mention the wider nightlife sector that, while operationally inconvenient, should be served.
The railway isn't run for its own convenience, it's to provide transportation, and that's why it receives subsidies.

Also people who live in city centres take on an element of night-time activity, and at least hum, if not noise. Pubs close at 11 broadly, a theatre show or football match is done in the 9:30-10:30 window... that really isn't so late. Most places in the hinterland of an active, dynamic cities (not all are the same!) should have a train at 11pm ish --- some may not need this and might just be a closed up high street with a lot of crappy bars (see nightclub and late boozing rationale, cabs/locals) but for other things, we should really encourage more vibrant night time economies, and public transport to support those.

Birmingham, Manchester as mentioned which have a lot of cultural life and events - 11pm is really early for those cities.

 

[Magdalia]

It's surprising that that line has an hourly service into the late evening on weekdays but nowt on Saturday. Having said that Ockley, Holmwood and Warnham, the only three stations served by that line but no other, make stations on the Settle-Carlisle and Conwy Valley look like a metropolis. Indeed I must admit to being surprised that line survived Beeching given how rural it is and given how the three stations together seem to serve a settlement little bigger than Betws-y-Coed and with far less (by which I mean "basically none bar the Ramblers") tourist demand.

Dorking-Horsham survived Beeching because it was part if the main line from London to Bognor Regis. The Arun Valley service to/from London was diverted to run via Gatwick in the 1970s.

 

[NCT]

Some rural (and not so rural) lines still have traditional signal boxes and their operating hours are a function of signallers' shift patterns (i.e. what you can run during one 8-hour shift).

 

[Bevan Price]

There is as I suggested a legislative option that would involve a requirement on those arranging events of this nature in urban areas (stuff like football included), probably those above a certain capacity, to provide for a specified, large percentage of attendees to arrive and depart by public transport and for a formal plan to be created and published for this purpose. There would be a number of aspects to such a plan, which could be justified on environmental grounds (well, at least until most cars are EVs), one of which would be how you're going to make sure that people can reach typical last trains to places within the city's travel-to-work area, which outside London are typically around 2230-2300. Obviously the time you'd need to finish for this varies a bit, the Arena above Victoria clearly wouldn't need to finish as early as the Co-op Arena, to use two Manchester examples.

Football schedules are often arranged for the convenience of TV companies, most of which seem to care *** all for the convenience of fans who want to attend matches.

 

[HSTEd]

Football schedules are often arranged for the convenience of TV companies, most of which seem to care *** all for the convenience of fans who want to attend matches.

Ultimately, the TV/streaming audience is ten to a hundred times the on site audience, so this is far from unreasonable.

 

[zwk500]

Ultimately, the TV/streaming audience is ten to a hundred times the on site audience, so this is far from unreasonable.

Part of the product though is the sense of a full stadium and it's atmosphere (see COVID when they had to artificially create crowd noise), so the TV companies could be slightly more considerate. The 3pm blackout doesn't help, of course.

 

[VItraveller]

not quite the same thing I know but I’m always surprised there’s only one fast train per hour between Birmingham and Milton Keynes, I love visiting the theatre in MK but it’s annoying to have to wait at the station for nearly an hour for a train home.

 

[The exile]

I remember seeing handbills for the Bath pantomime from sometime in the last century (may even have been as late as the 50s) which advertised the fact that a special stopping train would run to somewhere down the Somerset and Dorset on Friday and Saturday nights - leaving Green Park about 20 minutes after the performance ended. That for a theatre with a capacity only in 3 figures!

 

[Bantamzen]

There is as I suggested a legislative option that would involve a requirement on those arranging events of this nature in urban areas (stuff like football included), probably those above a certain capacity, to provide for a specified, large percentage of attendees to arrive and depart by public transport and for a formal plan to be created and published for this purpose. There would be a number of aspects to such a plan, which could be justified on environmental grounds (well, at least until most cars are EVs), one of which would be how you're going to make sure that people can reach typical last trains to places within the city's travel-to-work area, which outside London are typically around 2230-2300. Obviously the time you'd need to finish for this varies a bit, the Arena above Victoria clearly wouldn't need to finish as early as the Co-op Arena, to use two Manchester examples.

How to destroy the entertainment industry stone dead in one go. It's a complex enough operation as it is to put together events, and this is ever increasingly reflected in the costs of event tickets. Throw in a requirement to arrange public transport and that will drive costs even higher and out of reach of even more people. It gets even harder with sports events, especially football cup games where more are now resolved on the day with extra time and penalties, which can easily add up to an extra hour onto proceedings.

The fact that in many parts of the country the late night transport is woefully inadequate is not a problem for the entertainment industry to solve. Event goers tend to be quite resourceful and will find ways to get to and from them regardless of start / finish times. Heck I used to travel to Manchester from Yorkshire a lot for gigs and nights out, and always found bars (or an all nighter such as at Jilly's) or cafes to chill in until the first train / coach back east. These days it would more likely be hotels, but that's an age thing and the fact I have more disposable income to be able to afford such luxuries! But late night transport is not the sole reserve of event goers, there are still people who work late into the nights and it is up to a combination of governments, local authorities and the transport providers to find ways to extend late night services where demand exists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Football schedules are often arranged for the convenience of TV companies, most of which seem to care *** all for the convenience of fans who want to attend matches.

That's why legislation is necessary. I doubt they would choose to play behind closed doors rather than comply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2025 ==

How to destroy the entertainment industry stone dead in one go. It's a complex enough operation as it is to put together events, and this is ever increasingly reflected in the costs of event tickets. Throw in a requirement to arrange public transport and that will drive costs even higher and out of reach of even more people. It gets even harder with sports events, especially football cup games where more are now resolved on the day with extra time and penalties, which can easily add up to an extra hour onto proceedings.

It's not a requirement to arrange public transport, but rather a transport plan, adapting your event to ensure most attendees can do so by public transport. In most cases simply ensuring the latest possible finish is 2200 would comply with any sensible version of such legislation. You could probably push it to 2215-2230 for city centre venues directly adjacent to major stations like the AO Arena, and you could probably do 2300 in central London as last trains tend to be later than elsewhere.

 

[zwk500]

It's not a requirement to arrange public transport, but rather a transport plan, adapting your event to ensure most attendees can do so by public transport. In most cases simply ensuring the latest possible finish is 2200 would comply with any sensible version of such legislation. You could probably push it to 2215-2230 for city centre venues directly adjacent to major stations like the AO Arena, and you could probably do 2300 in central London as last trains tend to be later than elsewhere.

Aren't they already obligated to do this in the planning permission for events?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't they already obligated to do this in the planning permission for events?

Some large venues are required to, yes, but I think it needs strengthening.

 

[Bantamzen]

That's why legislation is necessary. I doubt they would choose to play behind closed doors rather than comply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2025 ==



It's not a requirement to arrange public transport, but rather a transport plan, adapting your event to ensure most attendees can do so by public transport. In most cases simply ensuring the latest possible finish is 2200 would comply with any sensible version of such legislation. You could probably push it to 2215-2230 for city centre venues directly adjacent to major stations like the AO Arena, and you could probably do 2300 in central London as last trains tend to be later than elsewhere.

Again, it is not the entertainment industry's job to flex around poor public transport provision. Because where there are event venues, sports ground etc, there will be other associated businesses, and therefore potential demand for public transport late at night. It is time for the various sectors of transport to stop expecting it's customers to work around what is convenient for them, and start actually provisioning for where demand exists or potentially exists.

For example in my old home in Bradford, a new venue Bradford Live has opened this year. But public transport after around 20:00 in Bradford has become so poor (thank you First Group in particular!), that using your proposed solution gigs would have to start late afternoons, and finishing by about 19:00. That's never going to be feasible. Venues have to take into account people getting away, but also people getting there. Plus with a gig, if there's a couple of support acts there has to be time to swap out kit and set up sound & lighting for each (and add in the extra time the lead guitarist faffs about getting the sound just right ), so you're never going to a half decent gig squeezed into 2 or 3 hours, which would also drive future demand down. The UK is already finding it increasingly difficult to compete with European venues for the bigger acts, it's often cheaper to fly to a gig in Germany than to go to a major UK city for one. So the last thing they need is further regulation that will ultimately make it harder still.

Poor provision late at night, as well as cost, is the responsibility of those authorities and companies charged with supplying them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plus with a gig, if there's a couple of support acts there has to be time to swap out kit and set up sound & lighting for each (and add in the extra time the lead guitarist faffs about getting the sound just right ), so you're never going to a half decent gig squeezed into 2 or 3 hours, which would also drive future demand down.

I'm only talking about shifting them about an hour earlier. There are venues that do that anyway, Rock City in Nottingham does, not because of transport but because they have a student club night afterwards, so it can't be non-viable to do so.

If Bradford's bus service is really that bad then it needs addressing, but I'd struggle to say that last trains to places like Southport and Lancaster from Manchester being around 2230 is really that unreasonable (though I do think the last London train from Birmingham on a Saturday being 2206 is unacceptably early given that this is a route connecting England's first and second/third cities - it's 2311 every other day which is more sensible), and it really does make sense for events, particularly midweek ones, to be timed to respect that. If most people are going straight after work a slightly earlier start is probably OK anyway. Whereas on a Saturday there's really no constraint on the start time as such.

Edit: it's unacceptably early on a Saturday the other way too - 2142 from Euston - that really is poor and too early really to adjust events. The last Chiltern is 2202 which is a bit more reasonable - but really? I'm actually astonished it's that bad on what is probably the second most important piece of railway in the UK (the first probably being London-Manchester).

 

[zwk500]

If Bradford's bus service is really that bad then it needs addressing, but I'd struggle to say that last trains to places like Southport and Lancaster from Manchester being around 2230 is really that unreasonable (though I do think the last London train from Birmingham on a Saturday being 2206 is unacceptably early given that this is a route connecting England's first and second/third cities - it's 2311 every other day which is more sensible), and it really does make sense for events, particularly midweek ones, to be timed to respect that. If most people are going straight after work a slightly earlier start is probably OK anyway. Whereas on a Saturday there's really no constraint on the start time as such.

2230 is quite tight for getting away from most venues unless you keep an eye on the time and miss a little bit at the end. I think a more general shift to give most last trains between 2300-2330 would be more reasonable.

It's not easy to push midweek events towards a 7pm or earlier start - a lot of people don't work from home, and by the time people have got off work, come home to drop off all the bags and whatever they're not allowed to take in to arenas, parked the car, and got back out to a public transport stop there's barely time for food, even at the venue. And don't forget a lot of venues make the majority of profit off the bars and hospitality lounges, so need time for people to actually buy things from them.

That's not to say arenas should be allowed to go on past midnight and the railway must just deal with it, but it's not as simple as saying 'be in bed by 11' to the music industry.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm only talking about shifting them about an hour earlier. There are venues that do that anyway, Rock City in Nottingham does, not because of transport but because they have a student club night afterwards, so it can't be non-viable to do so.

If Bradford's bus service is really that bad then it needs addressing, but I'd struggle to say that last trains to places like Southport and Lancaster from Manchester being around 2230 is really that unreasonable (though I do think the last London train from Birmingham on a Saturday being 2206 is unacceptably early given that this is a route connecting England's first and second/third cities - it's 2311 every other day which is more sensible), and it really does make sense for events, particularly midweek ones, to be timed to respect that. If most people are going straight after work a slightly earlier start is probably OK anyway. Whereas on a Saturday there's really no constraint on the start time as such.

Edit: it's unacceptably early on a Saturday the other way too - 2142 from Euston - that really is poor and too early really to adjust events. The last Chiltern is 2202 which is a bit more reasonable - but really? I'm actually astonished it's that bad on what is probably the second most important piece of railway in the UK (the first probably being London-Manchester).

Even with a 22:00 end and chuck out (good luck trying to get bands to curtail one more encore if they've had a good set BTW), a crowd of a few thousand or more will take time to safely leave a venue and make their way to the station. 22:30 would definitely be pushing it for most indoor Manchester venues, unless they were at the MEN. These days being a Cheshire boy I cross Manchester a lot on my way home from Bradford City games, and even early Saturday evenings getting across the city to Piccadilly from Victoria can be tight if you wait on the trams. I can walk it in under 15 mins, but I'm not leaving a venue alongside thousands of others, although the Calder Valley services can sometimes feel like it!

But as you've noted even major routes are very poorly served away from London, and as I've said it's not just event goers that will trying to be getting home. Really most routes ought* to be able to be run until at least midnight, especially at weekends where perhaps services should run later still. So it's a much wider issue than just events, and something future governments ought to be looking at tacking.

(*This does of course raise issues on crew and rolling stock levels, but that's probably for another thread)

 

[zwk500]

But as you've noted even major routes are very poorly served away from London, and as I've said it's not just event goers that will trying to be getting home. Really most routes ought* to be able to be run until at least midnight, especially at weekends where perhaps services should run later still. So it's a much wider issue than just events, and something future governments ought to be looking at tacking.

(*This does of course raise issues on crew and rolling stock levels, but that's probably for another thread)

I think 2300-2330 is a reasonable time for 'last calls' when the service is travelling beyond the main built-up area - as you've mentioned there are impacts on crew and rolling stock requirements, especially when many commuter area journeys can be over an hour with all the stops, and then the train has to get to a stabling location. Most people won't want to be getting home at 1am in any event, and would probably not wait for a midnight train if that was the journey length.
'Metro' services within built up areas are a slightly different ball game as there will be higher demand later in to the night and the crew and rolling stock arrangements are often more set up for trains to be left at the end of the line rather than significant empty runs back to depot.