Mark Harper makes excuses over Northern's 24 Dec and 31 Dec failures.

[Moonshot]

You both seem unaware that it was reported on this forum Northern had the same issues the previous time 24 and 31 Dec fell on a Sunday. It's a joke to think Northern could only request replacement buses two days before. They could have done it when the timetable was confirmed.

They obviously knew about the staffing issues prior to Network Rail giving them notice the Bolton closure on 31 December. They just didn't know the exact number of services volunteers would cover.

I just hope you two don't try to manage a transport operation, if you think having plan B is only needed when plan A actually fails.

You seem to have a problem accepting a basic fact. That fact is if a conductor is not available for a particular service run by Northern, then that service will be cancelled.

This is.a regular problem on Sundays as staff are quite rightly having a day off.

No amount of you posting waffle on here is going to change that

 

[manmikey]

To move to Sundays in the working week from committed or voluntary working is not a simple matter.

Train crew presently working a 4 day week Monday to Saturday (To clarify for Harper this actually being 5 days work compressed into 4 days) that start a new arrangement of Sundays in the Working week will still only be contracted to work a 4 day week. Working a rostered Sunday will therfore result in them having a free day elsewhere in the week. That day needs to be covered by an increase in the depot establishment and that is expensive and would mean recruiting more traincrew. That is always the sticking point, it's too expensive.The DFT want it but don't want to pay for it.

A further complication is that presently shift change overs that happen between Saturday and Monday are often appalling, night shift Saturday night changing to early shift Monday morning being the worse. If Sundays were in the working week then they would subject to the same minimum 36hrs required between shifts changovers in the working week. More train crew required and more expense to solve this issue too.

Additionally the changes in Ts&Cs would have to be financially neutral or better to be acceptable for traincrew, therefore Unions would negotiate a % salary increase for members to offset the loss of sunday overtime pay and the valuable Sunday time off. More Cost.

 

[Moonshot]

All the above is correct.

What really should happen right now ( as pointed out by a few well informed posters) is Northern should introduce an emergency Sunday timetable based on running a small number of core routes reliably. This would mean vast numbers of stations on the west side of the network having no service on a Sunday. It would be the correct thing to do.....as it would give absolute clarity to the passenger.

 

[Ashfordian6]

All the above is correct.

What really should happen right now ( as pointed out by a few well informed posters) is Northern should introduce an emergency Sunday timetable based on running a small number of core routes reliably. This would mean vast numbers of stations on the west side of the network having no service on a Sunday. It would be the correct thing to do.....as it would give absolute clarity to the passenger.

There is no way Northern/DfT would do this as it mean they would not able to continue to hoodwink the gullible by continuing to blame the train crew for the issues.

 

[northwichcat]

You seem to have a problem accepting a basic fact. That fact is if a conductor is not available for a particular service run by Northern, then that service will be cancelled.

This is.a regular problem on Sundays as staff are quite rightly having a day off.

No amount of you posting waffle on here is going to change that

I'm honestly getting fed up of people like you and others presuming I'm suggesting something when I'm not.

The point I've consistently made is Northern failed in their obligation to provide alternative transport when they were unable to provide train services. West Midlands Trains had staffing issues on both dates, but they planned better. Mark Harper is making the excuse it's all the union's fault for not agreeing Sunday working and there's nothing Northern could do. I'm saying he's wrong - Northern planned badly, they could have allocated the volunteers for 24 Dec better and attempted to source rail replacement buses sooner.

I find it strange rail staff are saying I'm wrong when I'm saying Mark Harper is wrong. I didn't realise Mark Harper had so much support from rail staff.

What really should happen right now ( as pointed out by a few well informed posters) is Northern should introduce an emergency Sunday timetable based on running a small number of core routes reliably. This would mean vast numbers of stations on the west side of the network having no service on a Sunday. It would be the correct thing to do.....as it would give absolute clarity to the passenger.

You might be unaware than in the 1990s a 'temporary problem' caused the Mid-Cheshire line to go down from a 2 hourly Manchester-Chester service to a 3 hourly Altrincham-Chester shuttle with rail tickets being accepted on Metrolink services. That 'temporary problem' was only reversed in 2008.

If Northern can't provide staff they should be looking at solutions where alternative transport or ticketing arrangements are put in place.

It sounds like you're unaware of the situation outside the metropolitan areas, where on Sundays the train is often the only transport. So if Northern fail to provide their contracted service, there's no alternative buses/trams etc. This needs to be taken into account when Northern cancel services or create any emergency timetables. A 3 hourly Sunday service might have been seen as acceptable as in the 90s but it isn't now.

 

[Moonshot]

I'm honestly getting fed up of people like you and others presuming I'm suggesting something when I'm not.

The point I've consistently made is Northern failed in their obligation to provide alternative transport when they were unable to provide train services. West Midlands Trains had staffing issues on both dates, but they planned better. Mark Harper is making the excuse it's all the union's fault for not agreeing Sunday working and there's nothing Northern could do. I'm saying he's wrong - Northern planned badly, they could have allocated the volunteers for 24 Dec better and attempted to source rail replacement buses sooner.

I find it strange rail staff are saying I'm wrong when I'm saying Mark Harper is wrong. I didn't realise Mark Harper had so much support from rail staff.



You might be unaware than in the 1990s a 'temporary problem' caused the Mid-Cheshire line to go down from a 2 hourly Manchester-Chester service to a 3 hourly Altrincham-Chester shuttle with rail tickets being accepted on Metrolink services. That 'temporary problem' was only reversed in 2008.

If Northern can't provide staff they should be looking at solutions where alternative transport or ticketing arrangements are put in place.

It sounds like you're unaware of the situation outside the metropolitan areas, where on Sundays the train is often the only transport. So if Northern fail to provide their contracted service, there's no alternative buses/trams etc. This needs to be taken into account when Northern cancel services or create any emergency timetables. A 3 hourly Sunday service might have been seen as acceptable as in the 90s but it isn't now.

You are still not getting this are you.....

There are some 40 Sundays between now and end of year. Those Sundays will see thousand's of cancellations on Northern services on the west side of the Pennines because conductors are not volunteering to work overtime....which they are perfectly entitled to do. This situation will not be resolved for the foreseeable future.

Take the above into consideration if you are planning to use a Northern train on any future Sunday, because there's a very good chance that a service you want will not be running.

You don't need a politician to confirm that fact

 

[northwichcat]

You are still not getting this are you.....

Reminder of how you started engaging in this thread

I really don't get this post......it's well known that Northern can not provide a reliable service on a Sunday. As an example, some 65% of conductor jobs at my depot today are uncovered. I don't blame conductors one bit for not volunteering to work what is a rest day......why should they when the incentive is poor

Basically you've misunderstood the purpose of the thread and every post you've made is either off topic or going off on a tangent. It's not to discuss what your contract says about Sunday working - that topic has been discussed to death already. It's to discuss specific issues for 24 and 31 December 2023 and the government's response to them.

What you keep ignoring is West Midlands Trains also rely on volunteers for Sundays and they also were very short of crews volunteering. However, they did a much better job of managing the volunteers to provide a useful skeleton service on 24 and 31 Dec and identifying the need for replacement buses with sufficient time to be able to run them. Can you share why that is? I'm 99.9% confident it has nothing to do with anything you've posted in this thread. It'll be down to how Northern's planning team and management dealt with the situation, not the wording of your contract.

Honestly, you must be a nightmare for passengers if you're a conductor. I imagine if someone asks you to buy a Wayfarer you'd start shouting at them about something relating to Metrolink and then when they ask for a Wayfarer you'll probably shout they don't understand Metrolink. If that doesn't sound like you, why do you resort to that kind of communication on this forum?

 

[Moonshot]

Xmas eve and new year's eve 2023 is all our yesterdays. Hardly any conductor volunteered. Those that did were put on the busiest routes. It's that simple. The situation of lack of volunteers will continue until further notice. Totally irrelevant what some politician says......

 

[Train_manager]

What you keep ignoring is West Midlands Trains also rely on volunteers for Sundays and they also were very short of crews volunteering.

WMT pay 1.5 rate for Sunday working!!! All year round and they don't normally have an issue with volunteers.

What did Northern offer! £100. Lmao!!!

That's my two pence worth.

 

[Class 170101]

You both seem unaware that it was reported on this forum Northern had the same issues the previous time 24 and 31 Dec fell on a Sunday. It's a joke to think Northern could only request replacement buses two days before. They could have done it when the timetable was confirmed.

They won't be ordered until the operator has some idea how much work has been covered by conductors / drivers because Northern (and the railway in general) isn't allowed to spend money like water

They obviously knew about the staffing issues prior to Network Rail giving them notice the Bolton closure on 31 December. They just didn't know the exact number of services volunteers would cover.

So didn't have a complete picture about the staffing issues then

I just hope you two don't try to manage a transport operation, if you think having plan B is only needed when plan A actually fails.

I would expect the question to have asked of bus operators how many vehicles they may be able to supply without committing but there is no gurantees the question would have been answered and further more it masy well not have been a positive answer as I allude to in my earlier post #23, bus staff may not want to work on those days just as much as train crew, its not an issue exclusive to train crew.

 

[Lurcheroo]

WMT pay 1.5 rate for Sunday working!!! All year round and they don't normally have an issue with volunteers.

What did Northern offer! £100. Lmao!!!

That's my two pence worth.

TFW pay double time and minimum of 7.5 hours for a Sunday for conductors.
Very rarely see them struggling for conductors in the North on a Sunday. I think Camarthen seem to have a mind of their own and avoid doing overtime.

Of course conductors and drivers for TFW have now agreed to bring in Sundays to the working week now. Personally I think that’s how it should be (but of course the pay and conditions have to be suitable) so that TOC’s can provide a service as well timetables and consistent as the other days of the week.