• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Manchester Pic - was this right?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Chapeltom

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
1,316
Location
Tainan, Taiwan.
I'm on my way to Bryn station from Chapel en le Frith. There is no through ticket, I thus have to split. I chose to split at Hazel Grove. Making it £5.85 in all. Now the TM didn't come round after Hazel Grove so I had no ticket between there and Manchester.
When I attempted to pay the £2.20 at MAN as a ticket from HAZ I was told to pay £8.80. Which is quadruple. I refused to pay and bought tickets from a machine from MAN to Bryn. Now i will have to excess.

Was the woman right to try to get me to pay
£8.90 and secondly due to there being no difference in fares from MAN or Haz to Bryn will it be a zero excess?

Cheers
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
Chapel en le Frith to Hazel Grove Off-Peak Day Return 'rte Metrolink' = £5.50
Hazel Grove to Bryn Off-Peak Day Return 'rte Metrolink' = £3.30

Total £8.80

If you have a railcard (which you have't mentioned in your post), it would be...

Chapel en le Frith to Hazel Grove Off-Peak Day Return 'rte Metrolink' = £3.65
Hazel Grove to Bryn Off-Peak Day Return 'rte Metrolink' = £2.20

Total £5.85.

There is a Hazel Grove to Bryn 'rte Any Permitted' fare at £13.40 (£8.85 with railcard)

I would question the use of the Any premitted fare, but actually I think it might be right from a certain pov. Normally 'rte place x' means you have to go via that point, 'rte TOC A' means you have to use TOC's services. Could the clerk believe the correct fare is not 'rte Metrolink' because you are not using the tram?

Re-reading the FRPP, I'm inclined to agree (Officially speaking) though I really don't think it should be the case.
 
Last edited:

Chapeltom

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
1,316
Location
Tainan, Taiwan.
I have a 16-25 railcard and I'd already paid the £3.65 from CEF to HAZ. She tried charging me £8.80 from Hazel Grove to Bryn.
 

Lampshade

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2009
Messages
3,778
Location
South London
Were you splitting in Manchester as well? Or were you going CEF - HAZ, HAZ - BYN?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Chapeltom

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
1,316
Location
Tainan, Taiwan.
CEF to HAZ. HAZ to BYN.

HAZ and BYN stations are on the boundaries of the GMPTE zone so from Haz to Byn with a railcard it must be £2.20.

When on the train home from Manchester i will have to excess the ticket and it is zero excess yes?
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,480
Location
Yorkshire
What ticket issuing facilities were available to you at Chapel en le Frith? I guess none? in which case where did you buy your ticket - from the guard on the train? If so, did you ask for the combination there and then? If so, what did he say?

Did the guard did not come round between Chapel en le Frith and Manchester at all? If you had no opportunity to buy the ticket at Chapel en le Frith or on board then they have to sell you discounted tickets surely?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
... secondly due to there being no difference in fares from MAN or Haz to Bryn will it be a zero excess?

Cheers
Yes. Ask on the train from Bryn for the excess. If the guard can't/won't do it then ask on the next train. The guard on the train from Manchester may choose not to issue the excess and instead let you travel on your original ticket, as the price is the same and it's less hassle for them (zero excesses can be a pain for staff)
 

Chapeltom

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
1,316
Location
Tainan, Taiwan.
Ticket bought from Chapel to Hazel Grove on board. After Hazel Grove no opportunity to buy a ticket as the TM didn't reappear due to the train being jammed full. I thus have no
Ticket from Hazel Grove to Manchester.

I can't be fault here can I? Splitting tickets is hardly a crime when there is no available through fare.

I have to get 3 trains home. Byn to Wigan. Wigan to Manchester Picc. Man to CEF.
So I excess on the byn to Wigan north western train?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,480
Location
Yorkshire
I don't quite understand why you didn't ask the guard for both tickets when he first came round? Why only buy one?

However you do absolutely nothing wrong in splitting the journey into multiple tickets, and the excess on the return is zero and you should ask for it on the first train, if the 1st guard can't do it, keep asking at each opportunity. If no guard feels the need to do the zero excess, then that's the Railway's problem, not yours. The fare is the same anyway so some guards will just let you travel and not want to bother with the hassle of a zero excess.
 

Chapeltom

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
1,316
Location
Tainan, Taiwan.
I didn't know I could buy both tickets from the guard first time. Had i known i'd have done it. Next time I'll know.

Least I've got to the bottom of this. I would have been daft to pay the £8.90 some people out there wouldn't have questioned it and paid way over the top.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
You can excess the ticket at anytime before you reach Manchester.

It's not a question of fault, it's a question of routeing.

The FRPP says that any journey wholly within the GMPTE area that requires Metrolink across the city has 'rte Metrolink' on it, those that do not have 'rte Mtrolink' on are not valid on the Metrolink across the city.

The FRPP (and NRG) also says that the routeing on the ticket must be used (unless another route is cheaper).

So the correct fare for your journey is....

Chapel en le Frith-Hazel Grove £3.65
Hazel Grove-Bryn £8.85

Total £12.50

If you went from Piccadilly to Victoria to pick up the Wigan train, it would be £5.85.

Incidentally, The Chapel en le Frith-Bryn Off-Peak Day Return 'rte Any Permitted' is £13.70
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
I don't quite understand why you didn't ask the guard for both tickets when he first came round? Why only buy one?

However you do absolutely nothing wrong in splitting the journey into multiple tickets, and the excess on the return is zero and you should ask for it on the first train, if the 1st guard can't do it, keep asking at each opportunity. If no guard feels the need to do the zero excess, then that's the Railway's problem, not yours. The fare is the same anyway so some guards will just let you travel and not want to bother with the hassle of a zero excess.

You appear to raise several interesting issues here.
(1) a guard can issue any ticket even if it is not for his train
(2) staying on a train post the split point and being ready to pay the revenue collection agent for the extended journey is acceptable (so if none is visible on-train, the gateline may be the next possible
(2) if an excess is to be paid it should be requested at each step (assuming a revenue collection person can be found, if not the next will do).
Noted.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,480
Location
Yorkshire
You can excess the ticket at anytime before you reach Manchester.
Yes, or at Manchester, or on the train from Manchester.

To the OP: I would certainly ask at the first opportunity, and keep asking at each further opportunity (the next train and possibly the interchange station, if enough time is available without missing your train).

The problem with going from Chapel en le Frith to Bryn and only asking for a ticket as far as Hazel Grove (ie, not stating any intention to travel further), is that if there suitable ticket issuing facilities at Hazel Grove, and you don't buy a ticket until after Hazel Grove, how can you justify asking for a discounted ticket? You'd be expecting to pay full price, surely? Of course if there was no ticket issuing facilities at Hazel Grove then everyone boarding there would be entitled to the full range of discounts, and you'd be no different.

According to this the booking office should have been open, so I don't think you were entitled to a discounted ticket from Hazel Grove unless you had purchased it prior to departure from Hazel Grove.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You appear to raise several interesting issues here.
(1) a guard can issue any ticket even if it is not for his train
They can, but some staff refuse to sell discounted tickets, even for further travel, if you boarded at a staffed station with suitable ticket issuing facilities. (e.g. I hold a York-Donny ticket, and ask before Donny for another ticket Donny-Grantham. Common sense says, as I am buying before Donny, it should be discounted. However they will likely refuse because I should have got the additional ticket at York and if I want to continue beyond Donny I have to get off there and buy a ticket there, or pay full fare)
(2) staying on a train post the split point and being ready to pay the revenue collection agent for the extended journey is acceptable (so if none is visible on-train, the gate line may be the next possible
Conditions of Carriage says:

"18. If you travel further than a ticket allows
If you travel beyond the destination shown on the ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey. The relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply for that additional part of your journey
."

So if you do that at a PF station on a PF train, then a PF is applicable. If you do that at a staffed station, full fare is applicable. At an unstaffed station the full range of discounts is available.

So I would always ask the guard for the combination of tickets when he first comes round. It is not advisable to only ask for one ticket, and wait until you invoke condition 18 and then ask for another ticket.
(2) if an excess is to be paid it should be requested at each step (assuming a revenue collection person can be found, if not the next will do).
Noted.
Well, I wouldn't say you 'have' to but there are potential problems with not doing so:
1) The guard on the 1st train may have been willing, but the 2nd may not be. Some staff really do not like doing zero excesses. I also think that, when you first board a train at an unstaffed station, when the guard comes round to you, they effectively have to act as if they were a ticket office, and sell you a ticket for your journey. As your journey requires an excess, they should issue it.
2) Some staff say when you reach your destination the ticket cannot be excessed (this is undocumented as far as I know, possibly made up, but you try getting them to budge from that position!)
3) The on board staff may say you should have excessed before joining their train (true, although if the guards of previous trains won't/can't do it and you don't have enough time while changing trains to do this then you are entitled to an excess on the next train) and/or give the same excuse as 2).
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
Yes, or at Manchester, or on the train from Manchester.

To the OP: I would certainly ask at the first opportunity, and keep asking at each further opportunity (the next train and possibly the interchange station, if enough time is available without missing your train).

The problem with going from Chapel en le Frith to Bryn and only asking for a ticket as far as Hazel Grove (ie, not stating any intention to travel further), is that if there suitable ticket issuing facilities at Hazel Grove, and you don't buy a ticket until after Hazel Grove, how can you justify asking for a discounted ticket? You'd be expecting to pay full price, surely? Of course if there was no ticket issuing facilities at Hazel Grove then everyone boarding there would be entitled to the full range of discounts, and you'd be no different.

According to this the booking office should have been open, so I don't think you were entitled to a discounted ticket from Hazel Grove unless you had purchased it prior to departure from Hazel Grove.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They can, but some staff refuse to sell discounted tickets, even for further travel, if you boarded at a staffed station with suitable ticket issuing facilities. (e.g. I hold a York-Donny ticket, and ask before Donny for another ticket Donny-Grantham. Common sense says, as I am buying before Donny, it should be discounted. However they will likely refuse because I should have got the additional ticket at York and if I want to continue beyond Donny I have to get off there and buy a ticket there, or pay full fare)

Conditions of Carriage says:

"18. If you travel further than a ticket allows
If you travel beyond the destination shown on the ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey. The relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply for that additional part of your journey
."

So if you do that at a PF station on a PF train, then a PF is applicable. If you do that at a staffed station, full fare is applicable. At an unstaffed station the full range of discounts is available.

So I would always ask the guard for the combination of tickets when he first comes round. It is not advisable to only ask for one ticket, and wait until you invoke condition 18 and then ask for another ticket.

Well, I wouldn't say you 'have' to but there are potential problems with not doing so:
1) The guard on the 1st train may have been willing, but the 2nd may not be. Some staff really do not like doing zero excesses. I also think that, when you first board a train at an unstaffed station, when the guard comes round to you, they effectively have to act as if they were a ticket office, and sell you a ticket for your journey. As your journey requires an excess, they should issue it.
2) Some staff say when you reach your destination the ticket cannot be excessed (this is undocumented as far as I know, possibly made up, but you try getting them to budge from that position!)
3) The on board staff may say you should have excessed before joining their train (true, although if the guards of previous trains won't/can't do it and you don't have enough time while changing trains to do this then you are entitled to an excess on the next train) and/or give the same excuse as 2).

Does split ticketing such as that for the thread starter specifically require that he rebooks at the split point? And if it is a staffed station?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,480
Location
Yorkshire
Does split ticketing such as that for the thread starter specifically require that he rebooks at the split point? And if it is a staffed station?
Absolutely not. If it is a staffed station, and you wait until after the train has departed, you are over-riding (see condition 18).

I would urge anyone boarding at an unstaffed station to ask the guard for all the tickets they require, the guard may say "I'll issue this one now, and come back and do the rest" but at least then they know your intentions.

You can't just state your intention to only go to Hazel Grove , and then stay on beyond Hazel Grove, and do nothing about it and then expect to get a discounted ticket, surely?
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
The first time the op has a ticket issued it should be from the full range of fares, this should include split tickets. However, having spoken to the guard already, if the op travels beyond the destination on the ticket and is met by the guard again, I don't believe the guard has the same obligations.
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
Absolutely not. If it is a staffed station, and you wait until after the train has departed, you are over-riding (see condition 18).

I would urge anyone boarding at an unstaffed station to ask the guard for all the tickets they require, the guard may say "I'll issue this one now, and come back and do the rest" but at least then they know your intentions.

You can't just state your intention to only go to Hazel Grove , and then stay on beyond Hazel Grove, and do nothing about it and then expect to get a discounted ticket, surely?

Yorkie, is this an opinion or a statement, please?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,480
Location
Yorkshire
It's my interpretation of the NCoC - do you disagree with any of it?

I have stated the relevant part of the NCoC.

BTW, your reply to my post #12 suggests you hadn't read my post?
 

Chapeltom

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
1,316
Location
Tainan, Taiwan.
Well I'm only 17 and didn't know most of this. I'm on my train from Manchester to Chapel. I hope non of you are trying to imply I deserve to be penalty fared.

Last time I was at HAZ the ticket office guy told everyone to buy on the train.

Can't become an expert in the railways over night. I do like learning things like this though.
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
It's my interpretation of the NCoC - do you disagree with any of it?

I have stated the relevant part of the NCoC.

BTW, your reply to my post #12 suggests you hadn't read my post?

Yorkie,

I read every word and understand everything you say. Your knowledge is no doubt more complete and recent than mine.

Although I am supposed to be gateline, I moved on to other activities over 35 years ago and I love the business.
 

cuccir

Established Member
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
3,695
Well I'm only 17 and didn't know most of this. I'm on my train from Manchester to Chapel. I hope non of you are trying to imply I deserve to be penalty fared.

Last time I was at HAZ the ticket office guy told everyone to buy on the train.

Can't become an expert in the railways over night. I do like learning things like this though.

You can't (I don't think) be penalty fared on these services as they are run by Northern Rail, who don't operate penalty fares. You should, Yorkie thinks (and I'd agree), have to pay the full fare (ie no railcard discounts, off-peak discounts if applicable) because you're buying your ticket from Hazel Grove, where ticket purchasing facilities are available.
 

Chapeltom

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
1,316
Location
Tainan, Taiwan.
Anyway, I should have just got off and boarded the 1233 from HAZ to SLD as I did 3 weeks ago.

A mistake on my part. For the record I didn't see a guard on a train until I was nearly home and didn't end up excessing.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,480
Location
Yorkshire
Well I'm only 17 and didn't know most of this.
Well, it's in the conditions of carriage, but most people don't read it!
I'm on my train from Manchester to Chapel.
Did you ask for the ticket to be excessed and what was the outcome? Do let us know how it goes!
I hope non of you are trying to imply I deserve to be penalty fared.
I have tried not to get into what is morally right on this topic, my opinion of what people 'deserve' in many cases is probably a lot more lenient than the harsh rules of the conditions of carriage!!

However, I think it is an undeniable fact that if the Buxton to Manchester line was a Penalty Fare route (thankfully it isn't), then you would have been eligible for a PF after Hazel Grove.
Last time I was at HAZ the ticket office guy told everyone to buy on the train.
But if you are remaining on board the train, you don't know if that is necessarily the case.
Can't become an expert in the railways over night.
No, it takes years :lol:
I do like learning things like this though.
Well you're in the right place! :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyway, I should have just got off and boarded the 1233 from HAZ to SLD as I did 3 weeks ago.

A mistake on my part. For the record I didn't see a guard on a train until I was nearly home and didn't end up excessing.
Good, so it all went alright in the end, and you know for future reference that you can buy the combination when you first board :) (As I said earlier, don't be alarmed if the guard only issues the first ticket initially and says he'll get back to you; but by asking for the combination at the start you ensure that you are entitled to the full range of fares including discounts for your entire journey)
 

mickey

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
734
I can't be fault here can I? Splitting tickets is hardly a crime when there is no available through fare.
There is a through fare, it's just prohibitively expensive to use it. Nevertheless, splitting is ok, though as said above you should have bought both portions together.

If no guard feels the need to do the zero excess, then that's the Railway's problem, not yours. The fare is the same anyway so some guards will just let you travel and not want to bother with the hassle of a zero excess.
My addition to this thread is to say that if this happens, make a note of the guard's name or ID number. Not to report them, of course, but so they're traceable if anything goes wrong later. Most if not all should be happy to let you see a name badge if you say why. There was a case fairly recently of a girl in Birmingham who got a Penalty Fare as even though she had paid the right amount her ticket had the previous station marked on it, and I wouldn't trust any RPI to let a passenger off who should have a zero fare excess. There are quite a few cases on Merseyrail where the fares from nearby stations are equal and I always insist on getting an excess (albeit from a ticket office) where necessary, however reluctant staff are to give me one, just to cover my back.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top