Making the Conwy Valley less uneconomic

[squizzler]

The Heart of Wales offer a ranger ticket where you can play around on the route forming a triangle Swansea - Shrewsbury - Newport over one or two days.

I understand a similar scheme includes the Conwy Valley line in the quadrangle Blaenau - Portmadoc - Caernarfon - Llandudno, but driven by the heritage lines that provide half the route. With the opportunity to turn two heritage lines into something more adventurous than a simple 'there and back trip', this ought to be a killer app for the line, and needs to offer the opportunity to take two days to get round, as with the HoW product. Could this be better publicised and integrated into Transport for Wales? This offer deserves its own page on the Community Rail Partnership's promotional website, although the site also lacks information saying who is behind it, unlike the HoW offering.

 

[krus_aragon]

The Heart of Wales offer a ranger ticket where you can play around on the route forming a triangle Swansea - Shrewsbury - Newport over one or two days.

I understand a similar scheme includes the Conwy Valley line in the quadrangle Blaenau - Portmadoc - Caernarfon - Llandudno, but driven by the heritage lines that provide half the route. With the opportunity to turn two heritage lines into something more adventurous than a simple 'there and back trip', this ought to be a killer app for the line, and needs to offer the opportunity to take two days to get round, as with the HoW product. Could this be better publicised and integrated into Transport for Wales? This offer deserves its own page on the Community Rail Partnership's promotional website, although the site also lacks information saying who is behind it, unlike the HoW offering.

There is a through Caernarfon-Porthmadog-Blaenau ticket offered by the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways, but I'm not aware that there is any through validity to Bangor and Llandudno Jn.

There's also the Ffestiniog Round Robin ticket, which offers a circular rail journey on the Ffestiniog via Chester and Shrewsbury, but doesn't cover the Welsh Highland route.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at the actual wording of the title of this thread, I wonder what the WA could do, given their existing budget, to facilitate such matters that would assist the towns involved.

 

[squizzler]

There is a through Caernarfon-Porthmadog-Blaenau ticket offered by the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways, but I'm not aware that there is any through validity to Bangor and Llandudno Jn.

There's also the Ffestiniog Round Robin ticket, which offers a circular rail journey on the Ffestiniog via Chester and Shrewsbury, but doesn't cover the Welsh Highland route.

Thanks for clarifying that. I reckon that offering a ranger that covers Blaenau - Portmadoc - Caernarfon - Llandudno ought to be a no-brainer, even if they have to start it without the bus leg between Bangor / Caernarfon. In fact it could be cast as a publicity device to develop an appetite for the (re)opening of that last bit of railway.

Needless to say, the terms and conditions of all these circular tickets should be standardised as much as possible and cross-marketed so customers who do one might be encouraged to do the others safe in the knowledge that they are getting a consistent product.

 

[Meerkat]

Cynically wouldn’t the Ffestiniog rather sell a return ticket and hopefully collect more catering revenue on top?
It would also cause issues around fully booked trains (do they have variable prices by time of day?)
I just don’t think Rangers are worth the bother for FR and might just be mainly the same passengers paying less and dropping revenue.

 

[krus_aragon]

Cynically wouldn’t the Ffestiniog rather sell a return ticket and hopefully collect more catering revenue on top?
It would also cause issues around fully booked trains (do they have variable prices by time of day?)
I just don’t think Rangers are worth the bother for FR and might just be mainly the same passengers paying less and dropping revenue.

The only varying prices they have are are some reduced fares for the first and last trains of the day when they're running their full peak timetable. They offer reservations for first class seats, but other than that it's first come, first seated.

(The FR's return ticket is actually an "All Day Rover" ticket: you can keep travelling up and down as much as you like.)

 

[talerddig]

That was purely due to ownership. The Rheidiol wasn't a roaring success but it kept its head above the water, and it was bought out by the Cambrian Railways in 1913 for a fairly discount price. The Cambrian was then grouped into the GWR, which was in turn nationalised. The Ffestiniog was far more profitable due to its slate traffic, and stayed independent during merger season. By the time of nationalisation, its traffic had been hampered by the war years, and it could easily be overlooked by Whitehall (whereas the Rheidiol was already on the GWR books).

As for the Welsh Highland Railway and its predecessors, the North Wales Narrow Gauge Railways had tried to arrange a buyout with the LNWR around the same time as the Rheidiol's acquisition, but it came to nothing, and despite the merger into the Welsh Highland, the railway remained a financial basket case and fell into obscurity within decades.

The VOR kept its head above water by clever management by the likes of Oliver Veltom and Lewis Hamer. The Cambrian actually effected a board take-over, after the contractors, Pethicks dumped their shares - after they failed to win the contract to build the Aberaeron extension. The Rheidol railway from GWR onwards was set up as a seasonal tourist line, whereas the FFest, Welshpool and others survived almost completely on freight.

I have no idea how the Ffest and Talyllyn escaped grouping, the Welshpool and Corris did not and were absorbed into the GWR and were closed by BR due to them being seen as freight -based railways, or that's my guess. Oli Veltom, the traffic superintendent for the Oswestry division also was a saint for hiding the Earl and Countess in Oswestry works to avoid them being scrapped, whilst the preservation society was forming

 

[30907]

I have no idea how the Ffest and Talyllyn escaped grouping, the Welshpool and Corris did not and were absorbed into the GWR and were closed by BR due to them being seen as freight-based railways, or that's my guess.

Lots of minor lines escaped Grouping. Wasn't the W&L already owned by the Cambrian? The GW bought the Corris, says Wikipedia, for its bus services, and withdrew passenger services on both in 1931.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I have no idea how the Ffest and Talyllyn escaped grouping, the Welshpool and Corris did not and were absorbed into the GWR and were closed by BR due to them being seen as freight -based railways, or that's my guess. Oli Veltom, the traffic superintendent for the Oswestry division also was a saint for hiding the Earl and Countess in Oswestry works to avoid them being scrapped, whilst the preservation society was forming

I believe the Ffestioniog and Talyllyn were effectively owned by the quarry companies, which probably made it complicated to either include them in the grouping or nationalise them. Whereas the Welshpool & Llanfair was a stand-alone railway company. Not sure about the VoR, but think it may have been too; it certainly got bought out by the Cambrian at an early stage of its existence.

 

[HSTEd]

There are a lot of random oddities in nationalisations like that.

For example the Manchester Ship Canal somehow escaped nationalisation.

 

[Llanigraham]

The W & L and the Corris had been acquired by the Cambrian Rlwy, which was then acquired by the GWR, and then nationalised.

 

[talerddig]

I believe the Ffestioniog and Talyllyn were effectively owned by the quarry companies, which probably made it complicated to either include them in the grouping or nationalise them. Whereas the Welshpool & Llanfair was a stand-alone railway company. Not sure about the VoR, but think it may have been too; it certainly got bought out by the Cambrian at an early stage of its existence.

The VOR was subject to a board take over after the Cambrian acquired sufficient shares to do so. Take your point about the quarries though

 

[Belperpete]

I believe the Ffestioniog and Talyllyn were effectively owned by the quarry companies, which probably made it complicated to either include them in the grouping or nationalise them. Whereas the Welshpool & Llanfair was a stand-alone railway company.

Both the Ffestiniog and Talyllyn have always been stand-alone railway companies. The Talyllyn was owned by Sir Henry Haydyn Jones, the local MP. The controlling interest in the FR at the time of the grouping was held by the North Wales Power and Electric Traction Company (who became the Aluminium Corporation), but this would not have prevented the FR from being grouped. Indeed, the FR was originally included in the LMS group, but was transferred to the GW group following local pressure (the local councils not unreasonably feared the LMS would close the FR and send all the slate via the Conwy Valley). However, an amendment to the grouping act in the House of Lords resulted in the FR being removed from the GW group, following lobbying from the NWP&ET Co. The FR's local MP (David Lloyd George) may have had something to do with this. The NWP&ET Co were in process of building the WHR, which scheme had much local support, and the GW would probably have put a stop to that.

By the time of nationalisation, both lines were nearly defunct - no point in spending money on nationalising something if your first act would likely be to close it.

 

[Belperpete]

the FFest, Welshpool and others survived almost completely on freight.

While the FR did indeed rely on freight for most of its pre-preservation existence, after the first world war it survived mainly on the tourist trade, and was extensively marketed as the "Toy Railway" to tourists.

 

[edwin_m]

Deleted - thought we were in the "crazy reasons" thread...

 

[paul1609]

Were there any independent lines, of any gauge, that were nationalised? I thought it was just the "big 4".

I remember reading somewhere that the FR not being included in the grouping may have had something to do with who the local MP was (Lloyd George).

Sorry just seen this! Independent Railways Nationalised 1948:
Kent & East Sussex Railway Co Ltd
East Kent Light Railway
Mersey Railway
Cornwall and North Junction Railway
The Kent & East Sussex Railway was "re-privatised" in 1974 after a bitter court battle against the Labour Government.

 

[30907]

Sorry just seen this! Independent Railways Nationalised 1948:
Kent & East Sussex Railway Co Ltd
East Kent Light Railway
Mersey Railway
North Devon and Cornwall and North Junction Railway
The Kent & East Sussex Railway was "re-privatised" in 1974 after a bitter court battle against the Labour Government.

Corrected. The Shropshire and Montgomeryshire was the other Col Stephens line still extant; the full list occupies a page and a half of the Act but it's mostly Joint lines.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To finally correct the correction.....The full title is

North Devon and Cornwall Junction Light Railway