Londoners don't want to drive buses

[Teflon Lettuce]

NS-SEC (national statistics socio economic classification) gives the following job examples :



1 Higher managerial, administrative and professional occupations

1.1 Large employers and higher managers and administrative occupations (Chief Executive, Production Manager)

1.2 Higher professional occupations (Doctor, Barrister, Dentist)

2 Lower managerial, administrative and professional occupations (Nurse, Actor, Journalist)

3 Intermediate occupations (Fireman, Photographer, Airline Cabin Crew)

4 Small employers and own account workers (self employed: Builder, Hairdresser, Fisherman)

5 Lower supervisory, craft and related occupations (Train Driver, Plumber, Electrician)

6 Semi-routine occupations (Postman, Care Assistant, Shop Assistant)

7 Routine occupations (Bus Driver, Refuse Collector, Waitress)

8 Never worked and long-term unemployed

Unfortunately bus drivers are at the bottom of the list lumped in with refuse collectors and waitresses so probably not professional in the way a Doctor or Dentist is.

(Source : http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/uncat...re-socio-economic-status/sty-coding-tool.html)

I wasn't referring to any official listing... I was referring to what bus industry management continually tell driving staff... my point being that when it suits bus managers want their drivers to be "professional" but when it doesn't suit then they are just menial workers who don't deserve a decent wage commensurate with the responsibilities they have.

As a further point I wonder if the slide in wages and conditions of bus drivers can be correlated with the move of bus managers to be taken from graduate stock rather than those who have worked their way up through the ranks? Certainly there are plenty of bus managers around these days that haven't even stepped on board a bus since leaving school... let alone driven one!
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I haven't fallen in to any trap. If you want bus driving to become a better paid job then expect the requirements to get that job to go up. They will also have to find some way to narrow down the field when it comes to applicants. By PROFESSIONALS what do you mean? Do you mean that no one else can drive or that anyone can do anyone elses job apart from yours. I bet you couldn't do mine!

where have you been for the last few years... the standards required for becoming a bus driver (and keeping that qualification) have been going up and up for years.

I probably wouldn't even want your job... but answer this would YOU be prepared to drive a bus for £8-10/hr? responsible for the safety and comfort of up to 100 people at a time? maybe responsible for upwards of £500 in takings (remember no security to the takings... and if you DO get mugged then the money is likely to be taken from your wages as a "short"), having to avoid every idiot car driver that cuts you up, avoiding suicidal pedestrians that step out in front of you even after looking...all whilst driving smoothly so your passengers have a comfortable journey... keeping to an impossible timetable in todays congested conditions... all the time having to be pleasant even when the most obnoxious people are screaming abuse at you for doing your job?

I thought not...

 

[notadriver]

I didn't state the second part. But just so you know I've been there and got the t-shirt on that.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I didn't state the second part. But just so you know I've been there and got the t-shirt on that.

then you know why I get so shirty with people who think that bus drivers get a fair wage

 

[Robertj21a]

Hmmm... so that makes 2 people on here that think I should accept low pay for doing a job I enjoy... or take a job I hate to earn more money....where have I said that I don't like any of the above? nowhere... I am discussing the issues involved from my own PERSONAL experience... I assume you think that nurses are paid well enough thank you very much and then complain when you have a 6 hour wait in A&E?

If you think that any fool can drive a bus why don't you try it for a couple of years before pontificating on whether bus drivers are paid a fair wage?

as to the law of supply and demand is working why has the bus industry had to constantly recruit from abroad since the 1960's? The industry has been desperately short of drivers since before WW2 in many areas...Could it be that they pay too low a wage? Unfortunately, like yourself, too many bus industry managers see drivers as a necessary evil rather than their greatest asset.

Is there any correlation between the slide in wages, terms and conditions since the 1980's and the slide in driving/ customer care standards over the same period?

put it another way... which company would be the most successful... the one paying £15/hr taking the pick of available drivers? or the one paying minimum wage and having to take whichever tom dick or harry applies? which one will have the higher customer satisfaction? which one in the long term will survive... as I have said before pay peanuts... get monkeys!

It gets tiresome for those of us PROFESSIONAL drivers to have to defend our status against prejudiced misinformed views of what we do day in day out.

I really have no idea why you have to rant so much. I've always said that bus drivers aren't paid well for the difficult job they do (I have a bus driver in my family).

The only way bus drivers pay will increase is when there's a shortage of people applying for vacancies - supply vs demand.

In brief, you accept the situation - or find another job that suits you better.

 

[90019]

The only way bus drivers pay will increase is when there's a shortage of people applying for vacancies - supply vs demand.

This is exactly it.
Like in many industries, some companies will pay as little as they can get away with. Only when there's a shortage of drivers will there be an incentive for them to change.

In brief, you accept the situation - or find another job that suits you better.

This.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I wasn't referring to any official listing... I was referring to what bus industry management continually tell driving staff... my point being that when it suits bus managers want their drivers to be "professional" but when it doesn't suit then they are just menial workers who don't deserve a decent wage commensurate with the responsibilities they have.

As a further point I wonder if the slide in wages and conditions of bus drivers can be correlated with the move of bus managers to be taken from graduate stock rather than those who have worked their way up through the ranks? Certainly there are plenty of bus managers around these days that haven't even stepped on board a bus since leaving school... let alone driven one!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


where have you been for the last few years... the standards required for becoming a bus driver (and keeping that qualification) have been going up and up for years.

I probably wouldn't even want your job... but answer this would YOU be prepared to drive a bus for £8-10/hr? responsible for the safety and comfort of up to 100 people at a time? maybe responsible for upwards of £500 in takings (remember no security to the takings... and if you DO get mugged then the money is likely to be taken from your wages as a "short"), having to avoid every idiot car driver that cuts you up, avoiding suicidal pedestrians that step out in front of you even after looking...all whilst driving smoothly so your passengers have a comfortable journey... keeping to an impossible timetable in todays congested conditions... all the time having to be pleasant even when the most obnoxious people are screaming abuse at you for doing your job?

I thought not...

Woah there Teflon. I think you need to have some camomile tea and calm yourself.

I think everyone is saying that bus drivers should be paid more. However, the issue is as always, where does the money come from?

• Firstly, to get to where YOU think they should be is massively more than the profits that the industry makes (irrespective of whether you think 5% or 10% is some sort of acceptable margin for a business)
• Secondly, as I've explained before, this windfall of lower fuel prices is neither as big as you think (it's not as big a fall as at the retail pump NOR is it that large a constituent of the total run rate) and it only offsets the decline in concessionary pass remuneration, loss of revenue from tendered services and increases in other costs
• Thirdly, there are many as deserving (if not more emotive) recipients of improved pay, whether that be nurses, care home assistants, fireman etc

Also, I take issue with your blanket comment about graduate managers. I've known some "dyed in the wool" managers who've come up through the ranks who have been absolutely dire - promoted in the old days because they were the mouthy union rep.

I also know some graduates who are excellent - they might even read this :roll:. You can't merely treat them as some homogenous group. In fact, it's worse than that. Most graduates who join the bus industry do it for the love of it - spot the number who own preserved buses! Yes, they get paid more than the average salary but in terms of what a graduate can earn, then many like me have decided to take another path as, quite simply, I get paid more by not working in the bus industry.

I'm not decrying that drivers should get paid more but until something happens that demands a driver HAS to get paid more (e.g. a minimum wage specified by TfL?) then this argument will continue to go on.

 

[radamfi]

In brief, you accept the situation - or find another job that suits you better.

Or you might be better off moving to a more socialist country, such as Sweden, where there is much less difference between rich and poor, and more respect for trade unions. Britain is a pretty right-wing country, and likely to get more so in future. I would go now while Freedom of Movement within the EU still exists.

 

[fowler9]

I wasn't referring to any official listing... I was referring to what bus industry management continually tell driving staff... my point being that when it suits bus managers want their drivers to be "professional" but when it doesn't suit then they are just menial workers who don't deserve a decent wage commensurate with the responsibilities they have.

As a further point I wonder if the slide in wages and conditions of bus drivers can be correlated with the move of bus managers to be taken from graduate stock rather than those who have worked their way up through the ranks? Certainly there are plenty of bus managers around these days that haven't even stepped on board a bus since leaving school... let alone driven one!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


where have you been for the last few years... the standards required for becoming a bus driver (and keeping that qualification) have been going up and up for years.

I probably wouldn't even want your job... but answer this would YOU be prepared to drive a bus for £8-10/hr? responsible for the safety and comfort of up to 100 people at a time? maybe responsible for upwards of £500 in takings (remember no security to the takings... and if you DO get mugged then the money is likely to be taken from your wages as a "short"), having to avoid every idiot car driver that cuts you up, avoiding suicidal pedestrians that step out in front of you even after looking...all whilst driving smoothly so your passengers have a comfortable journey... keeping to an impossible timetable in todays congested conditions... all the time having to be pleasant even when the most obnoxious people are screaming abuse at you for doing your job?

I thought not...

Look mate I do apologise if you got the impression that I was knocking bus drivers, I didn't intend to do that. The thing is that I do work in a safety critical role, I need security clearance to do it, I take abuse of people on a daily basis for doing my job and I don't earn above the £8 to £10 an hour pay band. I do think bus drivers should earn more, my mates dad is one and my uncle was one so I have an idea what they go through, also given the fact that I don't drive and I use buses and trains on a daily basis gives me some insight.

 

[Blueiain]

I was a bus driver for 12 years, loved it worked at Byker (Busways) Moor Dale coaches, leaside buses (London) grey green (London), metro taxis (GAG) wallsend (GAG) Percy main (GAG) Gateshead (GAG) and lastly Winlaton (GAG) money started on mini buses £3.04ph left 12 years later after decker work, super shuttles X66, and National express, finished on £5.05ph in 2000, went to uni in 2003 and did 3 years DipHE Nursing Studies (Adult) started on £9ph now get £14.95ph for days and upto £28ph for weekends nights and bank holidays, but I would go back on the road tomorrow if I could afford it

 

[Busaholic]

This is exactly it.
Like in many industries, some companies will pay as little as they can get away with. Only when there's a shortage of drivers will there be an incentive for them to change.

There may not yet be a shortage of drivers in the TfL area, but, just outside, in Essex and Kent (Sevenoaks) there is, exacerbated by unavailability of reasonably priced housing, The same may well apply in Surrey and Berks, but recent bus cutbacks in those counties, Herts too, may be shielding these problems.

 

[jon0844]

Our local bus operator (Herts) apparently doesn't have a shortage of drivers since the cuts (for a while we had buses cancelled without notice), but is still recruiting and training. I assume this is because they've had a lot of bad drivers that are either sacked or leave.

The problem for drivers is that there's now hardly any overtime, so I know some drivers are thinking of leaving as a result. Further cuts will just make things worse.

 

[Antman]

There may not yet be a shortage of drivers in the TfL area, but, just outside, in Essex and Kent (Sevenoaks) there is, exacerbated by unavailability of reasonably priced housing, The same may well apply in Surrey and Berks, but recent bus cutbacks in those counties, Herts too, may be shielding these problems.

Plus the fact just up the road they can get more money on TfL routes, garages near the M25 don't seem to have a problem attracting drivers but garages nearer the central area do for the same reason of the cost of housing

 

[Busaholic]

Plus the fact just up the road they can get more money on TfL routes, garages near the M25 don't seem to have a problem attracting drivers but garages nearer the central area do for the same reason of the cost of housing

Go Coachhire based in Sevenoaks seems to attract drivers on the opposite basis! They have a few drivers from the London area, not necessarily even close to Sevenoaks, many will have driven for London bus companies but prefer the more sedate nature of the job in the Weald, with no driving after early evening and precious little Sunday work either. For the more mature driver, shall we say, who doesn't need or want overtime or a stressful life, this can be the ticket. I can quite see these arguments might not apply to Luton, Harlow or Slough, however.

 

[Antman]

Go Coachhire based in Sevenoaks seems to attract drivers on the opposite basis! They have a few drivers from the London area, not necessarily even close to Sevenoaks, many will have driven for London bus companies but prefer the more sedate nature of the job in the Weald, with no driving after early evening and precious little Sunday work either. For the more mature driver, shall we say, who doesn't need or want overtime or a stressful life, this can be the ticket. I can quite see these arguments might not apply to Luton, Harlow or Slough, however.

Yes rural routes are far more pleasant if you don't mind the lower rate of pay.

And yes I see your point about Luton, Harlow and Slough