London Night Bus Network

[Mutant Lemming]

How many cities in the UK have daytime services that are as good as London's nightbus network? Someone told me recently that London's nightbus network is more extensive and frequent than the daytime one in Paris (haven't checked but think he may be right).

 

[transmanche]

How many cities in the UK have daytime services that are as good as London's nightbus network? Someone told me recently that London's nightbus network is more extensive and frequent than the daytime one in Paris (haven't checked but think he may be right).

That may well be true, as 'Paris' is only about 41sq miles whereas Greater London is over 600 sq miles. (The equivalent area in London would just be 2 or 3 of the central boroughs.)

As for London's night buses, I can't think of anywhere else where the overnight service can be more frequent than the daytime service. N29 has 18 buses per hour between Wood Green & Trafalgar Square at the weekend - whereas the daytime 29 can 'only' manage 15 buses per hour between 2pm & 6pm.

 

[34D]

One thing I'd like to know, is what is the maximum length of time a bus spends out on the road? I can imagine 48 hours perhaps?

 

[radamfi]

How many cities in the UK have daytime services that are as good as London's nightbus network? Someone told me recently that London's nightbus network is more extensive and frequent than the daytime one in Paris (haven't checked but think he may be right).

The London night bus network has got to be one of the most comprehensive in the world.

Major cities in Europe outside the UK and Ireland rarely have such a dependency on buses like we are used to in the UK. Obviously the centre of the Paris region (i.e. Paris 'proper') is very well served by the Metro service which is denser than the London Underground and has less distance between stops. This means that there is less need for buses in Paris. However, the suburbs of Paris, where the Metro doesn't reach, has a reasonable bus service, but not really on the scale that London has in its outer area.

 

[CatfordCat]

One thing I'd like to know, is what is the maximum length of time a bus spends out on the road? I can imagine 48 hours perhaps?

Do you mean before it needs re-fuelling?

I'd say probably about 18 hours on average, although the fuel consumption will vary by type of bus and operating environment.

A few years ago, I lived in a shire county that had put on quite a lot of evening services with rural bus grant / challenge money - in some cases, the company that ran the daytime service won the tender for the evening service, and kept the same buses out all evening.

There were a couple of routes where it was touch and go whether the last bus would manage to get back to base without running out of fuel, and it was not uncommon for the late shift engineers to have to go out and rescue buses. I think mid-evening bus change-overs got written into the schedules eventually...

Then there's the practicality of cleaning buses.

I don't work for a London bus company, but I'd be surprised if buses that have been out all night stay out beyond the end of the morning peak, they may even call in for a refuel and clean just before the morning peak hits full swing. Likewise, I'd be fairly sure that buses that go out on night duty have been in for a clean and re-fuel during the evening.

I don't think there's any London routes that have their detailed (bus) schedule on the internet, so can't prove it. It's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of London routes now involve buses running 'private' to / from garages for driver change-overs, particularly at odd hours.

The growth of the London night bus network is quite a success story - I can remember the night bus output for the whole of London being perhaps about 40 buses, mainly geared towards the need of print workers in and around Fleet Street, and, with one or two exceptions, not running on Saturday nights. It all started to grow in the mid 80s and then someone noticed that there was a demand for travel on Saturday nights...

 

[transmanche]

The growth of the London night bus network is quite a success story - I can remember the night bus output for the whole of London being perhaps about 40 buses, mainly geared towards the need of print workers in and around Fleet Street, and, with one or two exceptions, not running on Saturday nights. It all started to grow in the mid 80s and then someone noticed that there was a demand for travel on Saturday nights...

I too can remember that far back, when the aforementioned 18bph N29 was established as a separate route (rather than just being a few late/early journeys on the 29). I think it ran hourly, with a 2-hour gap in the middle of the night - presumably for the drivers' meal break. (And one-day Travelcards weren't accepted then.

If it wasn't hourly, then it was every 30 mins with a 1 hour gap. But that's about 25 years ago!

 

[causton]

Some fascinating old timetables and information here http://www.londonbuses.co.uk/routes/rl-nights.html

By the sounds of it transmanche isn't too far off, with the route N29 needing one bus at first! Just the one!

 

[CatfordCat]

I too can remember that far back, when the aforementioned 18bph N29 was established as a separate route (rather than just being a few late/early journeys on the 29). I think it ran hourly, with a 2-hour gap in the middle of the night - presumably for the drivers' meal break. (And one-day Travelcards weren't accepted then.

If it wasn't hourly, then it was every 30 mins with a 1 hour gap. But that's about 25 years ago!

I don't have a night bus timetable from that era to hand, but yes, most London night bus routes used to work on the basis that each crew kept their bus for the whole duty and had a meal break somewhere, hence an irregular timetable with longer gaps around the middle of the night.

Towards the end of the 'traditional' phase of night bus operation, I think the only canteens open overnight were Victoria and New Cross garages and Liverpool Street terminus (ground level in the Broad Street Station building) - although the crew on the N 99 (Royal Docks - Walthamstow or thereabouts) might have gone somewhere in East London.

The N 87 (figure of eight round south London - Streatham / Tooting etc) had duties that were about 5 hours 'straight through' i.e. with no meal break.

The changes of the mid 80s also involved the planners realising there was no real need for the south London night buses (which had mostly previously been tram routes) to follow the tram route round Victoria Embankment...

http://www.londonbuses.co.uk/ has some London night bus history, although it's not yet complete.

 

[transmanche]

By the sounds of it transmanche isn't too far off, with the route N29 needing one bus at first! Just the one!

Cheers for the link, I'm amazed to see that the N29 now requires 37 vehicles at the weekend! From 1 vehicle to 37 - OK that's over 30 years, but it's still some growth in traffic.

 

[Deerfold]

Some fascinating old timetables and information here http://www.londonbuses.co.uk/routes/rl-nights.html

By the sounds of it transmanche isn't too far off, with the route N29 needing one bus at first! Just the one!

It looks like the 1960s Night Buses were more comprehensive than the early eighties network!

I've an eighties nightbus timetable at home (1 booklet with all the complete timetables in!) - I'll have a look next time I'm there.

 

[Greenback]

The London night bus network has got to be one of the most comprehensive in the world.

Major cities in Europe outside the UK and Ireland rarely have such a dependency on buses like we are used to in the UK. Obviously the centre of the Paris region (i.e. Paris 'proper') is very well served by the Metro service which is denser than the London Underground and has less distance between stops. This means that there is less need for buses in Paris. However, the suburbs of Paris, where the Metro doesn't reach, has a reasonable bus service, but not really on the scale that London has in its outer area.

I think you are right. There are also trams in many European cities that mean less bus routes and buses are required. But the biggest factor is undoubtedly the sheer size and spread of the London area.

It looks like the 1960s Night Buses were more comprehensive than the early eighties network!

I've an eighties nightbus timetable at home (1 booklet with all the complete timetables in!) - I'll have a look next time I'm there.

Interesting. There have ben many social and employment changes since the 1960's. London is now a truly 24 hour city, and there is a need for good public transport links all through the night.

I think the 1980's were a transient period which saw the decline of heavy industry but not yet the rise of the 24 hour supermarkets, greater numbers of flexible shift patterns, the after dark social scene and the late night entertainment that we know today.

 

[Statto]

N29 goes further than the day 29 route. Just looking at the PVR for the 29/N29, PVR for the N29 is 37, PVR for the 29 is 42. Sunday to Thursday nights N29 is 7/8 minutes throughout the route. Friday & Saturday night it's every 3/4 minutes Wood Green-Trafalgar Square, every 10 minutes Enfield-Trafalgar Square.

The London night network example of the routes being tendered rather than commercial, doubt some of the night routes would operator if it was commercially operated. Having said that in the UK think only Edinburgh has similar comprehensive night network throughout the Week & that's a commercial network, Glasgow used to have one until First cut the network couple of years ago, although think they still run Weekends only. Most other Cities tend to be Friday & Saturday nights only rather than all Week, can only think of the 43 Piccadilly-Manchester Airport that runs 24 hours all Week.

 

[radamfi]

Most other Cities tend to be Friday & Saturday nights only rather than all Week, can only think of the 43 Piccadilly-Manchester Airport that runs 24 hours all Week.

See the 'Sheffield Night Bus' thread. There are a few others, many of them airport services:

Bewbush - Crawley - Gatwick
Hove - Brighton Marina
Portslade - Brighton Universities
Birmingham - Chelmsley Wood - Airport
Liverpool - Birkenhead
Nottingham - Long Eaton
Nottingham - Long Eaton - East Midlands Airport
Derby - East Midlands Airport - Loughborough - Leicester
Hengrove - Bristol city centre - Cribbs Causeway
Bristol - Airport
Glasgow - Airport
Harlow - Stansted

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Liverpool - Birkenhead

Currently route 150 during the week though at weekends it is replaced by various commercial services to a few other destinations. The cross river night bus has operated 7 nights a week pretty much every night since 1956 when it replaced the all night ferries.