LNER - Ticket Irregularity

[mchla97]

i was traveling from doncaster to york today and i didn’t have a ticket so when the lady came to check i said i needed to buy one. she asked why i didn’t have one and i said there was no particar reason i just hadn’t had time to buy one at the connecting station(doncaster). i then made a comment and said that they never usually get checked when i’ve been able to buy them in advance before.

the lady then said this was ticket evasion as i had boarded the train with intent to not buy one as id said they never get checked. i feel this was unfair as it was just a passing comment. i was not refusing to buy a ticket and had my debit card and railcard ready to pay.

she issued me with a ticket irregularity report anyway and now i’m wondering what will happen next, will i get fined and what is the process? i’ve got myself worked up after googling ticket evasion and seeing the words criminal record and imprisonment so any information regarding the actual process would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Darandio]

Just to be clear, this wasn't a result of you 'passing comment'. It is an offence to board a train without a ticket where facilities exist to purchase a ticket beforehand, Doncaster is clearly a station where a ticket can be purchased. Not leaving enough time isn't an excuse.

By also suggesting that tickets have not been checked previously can easily be interpretated as an intention to evade the fare on this occasion.

There are several knowledgable folk here who will be along shortly to give you more advice about what to expect.

 

[krus_aragon]

i said there was no particar reason i just hadn’t had time to buy one at the connecting station(doncaster).

This could be a very important detail. Was your rail journey just from Doncaster to York, or was it part of a longer journey? If so, what other tickets (if any) did you have?

 

[mchla97]

This could be a very important detail. Was your rail journey just from Doncaster to York, or was it part of a longer journey? If so, what other tickets (if any) did you have?

i had travelled from grimsby to doncaster with a ticket.

i will be honest and say i didn’t have a ticket as i thought i could get away with not getting one if the conductor didn’t come round on the train, i wasn’t aware it was illegal to board the train without one i thought it was a standard procedure that passengers could buy a ticket on the train. as a result of me now knowing this i will hold my hands up. but this thread was not for me to be judged as guilty is was to gain some information about what happens next

 

[Darandio]

i will be honest and say i didn’t have a ticket as i thought i could get away with not getting one if the conductor didn’t come round on the train

I'd assume this is what she has suspected following your comment to her on the train, that hasn't really helped you.

In terms of what to expect next, other more informed members will be able to advise accordingly. However, you should not have to worry about imprisonment. Is this your first offence?

 

[mchla97]

I'd assume this is what she has suspected following your comment to her on the train, that hasn't really helped you.

In terms of what to expect next, other more informed members will be able to advise accordingly. However, you should not have to worry about imprisonment. Is this your first offence?

yes this is my first offence, i am relatively new to regular train travel hence why i did not realise that it was illegal to board without a ticket, my own fault completely for not being more aware.

 

[furlong]

Did you purchase your first ticket in advance? Just before travelling? On the train?

There is an offence:

(3)If any person—
...
(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;

To paraphrase that, if you had the reasonable opportunity to buy the ticket to York earlier, the law requires you to have done so. The train company would need to prove that that was the case - for example, they might show that when you bought the first ticket to Doncaster, you could have purchased a ticket to York, or that you had sufficient time at Doncaster to buy the ticket.

 

[mchla97]

Did you purchase your first ticket in advance? Just before travelling? On the train?

There is an offence:


To paraphrase that, if you had the reasonable opportunity to buy the ticket to York earlier, the law requires you to have done so. The train company would need to prove that that was the case - for example, they might show that when you bought the first ticket to Doncaster, you could have purchased a ticket to York, or that you had sufficient time at Doncaster to buy the ticket.

i bought the previous ticket in advance, i know it was an offence i just stated i will hold my hands up as guilty. i thought that as the tickets don’t always get checked that if the conductor didn’t come to me and i was unable to buy a ticket it wouldn’t be my fault, i was unaware that it was actually illegal to board the train without a ticket. and as a result will say yes i’m guilty of the offence. i am looking for some information on what happens next if possible?

 

[furlong]

However, proving intent is not always straightforward, and train companies will often agree to out-of-court settlements. Read some other threads in this forum.
Typically, you wait for a letter, then you reply to it apologising, making it clear it will never happen again, and offering to pay the outstanding fare and the company's costs in dealing with the matter. If they agree to settle it typically costs you in the region of £100.

 

[Kite159]

Sounds like you have dodged the fare between Doncaster & York before and gotten away with it, but this time the guard checked tickets and found you out...

 

[mchla97]

Sounds like you have dodged the fare between Doncaster & York before and gotten away with it, but this time the guard checked tickets and found you out...

you are making me seem like a bad person, i was unaware it was illegal and will never do it again. i thought it was a standard procedure that you could buy the ticket onboard of trains if necessary. i have been able to buy tickets on board before with no hassle and have bought advance tickets before. there is no question of ‘getting away with it’ i am always willing to buy a ticket.

 

[Clip]

i am always willing to buy a ticket.

But if you were then it strikes me as very odd that you didnt get one from Doncaster to York at the same time you bought your Grimsby to Doncaster ticket.

Can you see how this behaviour stands out as someone who knows they can run the risk of getting caught and now they have been is trying to be innocent?

 

[Silverdale]

there is no question of ‘getting away with it’ i am always willing to buy a ticket.

Really??

i will be honest and say i didn’t have a ticket as i thought i could get away with not getting one if the conductor didn’t come round on the train

 

[najaB]

i thought it was a standard procedure that you could buy the ticket onboard of trains if necessary.

It is. But your definition of 'if necessary' and the railway's aren't the same. Your definition seems to be 'if I'm asked for one', the railway's definition is 'always, and only if it was impossible to buy it before boarding'.

 

[yorkie]

...i just hadn’t had time to buy one at the connecting station(doncaster). i then made a comment and said that they never usually get checked ....

This sounds like evidence of intending to make a longer journey, but choosing only to purchase a ticket for the first leg of that journey, despite there being a requirement to purchase a ticket for the entire journey at the first opportunity.

It also sounds like you made that choice because you thought you get away without paying for the second part of the journey. Did they ask a question such as "If I had not stopped you, how would you have paid for the journey?" as that is a common question to crop up next.

This is known as "short faring" and the company is likely to prosecute you, though they may offer you the opportunity to settle the matter out of court. If they do not make such an offer, there is nothing to stop you instigating such a settlement.

If you are prosecuted and wanted to plead not guilty, you would need to appoint an experienced solicitor to have any chance of avoiding a guilty verdict. The cost of this could run into four figures potentially.

It would be in the interests of both parties to settle the matter out of court.

 

[MichaelAMW]

i bought the previous ticket in advance, i know it was an offence i just stated i will hold my hands up as guilty. i thought that as the tickets don’t always get checked that if the conductor didn’t come to me and i was unable to buy a ticket it wouldn’t be my fault, i was unaware that it was actually illegal to board the train without a ticket. and as a result will say yes i’m guilty of the offence. i am looking for some information on what happens next if possible?

But surely you don't think that you have any choice other than to pay, at some point, for the service you took? You make it sound as if visting the the ticket office at York was entirely optional and that company should then let you travel free if they don't come and demand your fare once you are on board. You really do need to properly understand these points in order to appreciate the seriousness of the situation as you explore your answer to that question of what happens next.

I have some sympathy with your claim that buying on board is allowed, as tickets are often sold in such circumstances without question, but that is rather different from thinking you have no personal responsibility for ensuring you pay your way.

 

[yorkie]

Once you receive correspondence from LNER, please get in touch and we will re-open the thread, but until there are any updates, I will close this thread, as we are unable to advise further at this stage, other than what has already been said.