LNER looks at purchasing more Azumas

[Tobbes]

And if they used the York avoiding lines and actually ran non-stop, the time would be....? Presumably in th 3h 50s ish; it's clearly not worth it as a business proposition. Realistically, rail needs to get below 3hrs London - Edinburgh to dominate that flow - and that's HS2.

 

[trivran]

Not even HS2 is going to bring the London - Edinburgh time below 3 hours.

 

[yorkie]

And if they used the York avoiding lines and actually ran non-stop, the time would be....? .

Slower than if they called at York; you'd also be conflicting with other traffic both north and south of York (especially in the Up direction, ie. southbound.)

 

[Tobbes]

Not even HS2 is going to bring the London - Edinburgh time below 3 hours.

Not yet - but HSR all the way will eventually happen and then sub three hours will be the norm.

Slower than if they called at York; you'd also be conflicting with other traffic both north and south of York (especially in the Up direction, ie. southbound.)

Oh, very interesting - many thanks.

 

[tbtc]

Hi all, I found this article by Rail magazine - https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/more-new-trains-on-lner-wish-list

It details LNER wanting 6-8 new trains, but unable to obtain them under their current contract, and requiring a new one to be made. That being the case, due to an EU regulation, they'll need to be an 'open competition'?

My query is how could LNER reasonably justify choosing someone else to make a mere 6-8 trains of a different sort - removing the flushness of the fleet, maintenance on different trains, and requiring driver training and crew training on different trains, versus just having a couple more of what they already have?

They are a public organisation, they have to be seen to tender for "best value" (rather than arranging a shady back-room deal).

They may well write the procurement so that it effectively guarantees Hitatchi will win (if they put in a compliant bid) but they have to go through the process of being seen to tender for it (let's face it, if someone *can* provide a better and cheaper train that can work with Hitatchi then it's not a bad thing to investigate).

That is very strange reasoning though.

If you've had rolling stock sitting around in storage for a few years then i could understand it, however given that the existing stock is in service now and would have a guaranteed future, it would be relatively easy to keep it ticking over.

Don't take my word for it.

If "Engineering Director John Doughty" is saying that "older stock would need significant rebuilding and refurbishment" then I'm prepared to listen to the experts and take his word for it.

If brand new ten coach trains are cheaper than the significant rebuilding and refurbishment required just to give us fun-sized cut-down rakes of Mk4s then that sounds good to me - surely the sage of Wabtec trying to make a silk purse out of some 1970s Mk3s is evidence that there's a limit to how much patching up old stock we can get away with on the modern railway?

 

[hexagon789]

If it’s an Edinburgh ‘premier’ service, you’re not going to want two piddly 5-cars. You’ll probably expect a full-length 10-car with a vastly improved First Class and catering facilities. The alternative, of course, is a three-class config.

I'd expect more first class; changing the composite to a full First and adding a standard to make up to 10-car. If they went for 3 classes what would they have?

An intermediate between First and Standard, something better than First or something worse than Standard (e.g. Virgin Value)

 

[Laketop]

In addition to the rail magazine article, it listing wanting 10 car trains. Right now, there are 9 car and 5 car(two forming a 10 car). With this, it can be assumed they either will get 12-16 5 car trains, or will go for the 6-8 9 car?

Is a 10 car - 1 train Hitachi available/possible, and wouldn't that be a hindrance considering they'll now have 5,9 and now presumably 10 car variant? That, or would it be considered to also upgrade 9 cars to have an additional carriage?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is a 10 car - 1 train Hitachi available/possible

I can't see any reason why not. If you can't have it as one train, do it as two permanently coupled ones with gangways at the ends instead of cabs.

 

[hexagon789]

In addition to the rail magazine article, it listing wanting 10 car trains. Right now, there are 9 car and 5 car(two forming a 10 car). With this, it can be assumed they either will get 12-16 5 car trains, or will go for the 6-8 9 car?

Is a 10 car - 1 train Hitachi available/possible, and wouldn't that be a hindrance considering they'll now have 5,9 and now presumably 10 car variant? That, or would it be considered to also upgrade 9 cars to have an additional carriage?

I assumed proper 10-car. For one specific route/service I don't see the point of ordering two 5-cars to make up 10 coaches in all.

 

[43096]

It isn't difficult to have an open competition which means only a single company bids. All down to how good the person writing the tender documents is.

Quite.

When London Midland went out to tender for what became the 350/3 fleet, everyone knew they were after more Desiros. So they just specified fully compatibility with the existing fleet - IIRC Bombardier didn't even bother bidding.

 

[43096]

If it’s an Edinburgh ‘premier’ service, you’re not going to want two piddly 5-cars. You’ll probably expect a full-length 10-car with a vastly improved First Class and catering facilities. The alternative, of course, is a three-class config.

But if you buy new trains that are operationally comparable to the existing Azuma fleet, you don't actually have to use the new sets on the new service. They are just part of a bigger fleet.

One argument for going for 5-car new build might be it is easier to specify full compatibility with the Azuma fleet if you want to run 2 x 5-cars. Other potential bidders might say that you don't need that if you are running what amounts to a fixed 10-car set.

 

[Laketop]

With LNER already looking for new trains, it does seem hopeful for EMR to potentially increase their order for more new rolling stock

 

[The Ham]

But if you buy new trains that are operationally comparable to the existing Azuma fleet, you don't actually have to use the new sets on the new service. They are just part of a bigger fleet.

One argument for going for 5-car new build might be it is easier to specify full compatibility with the Azuma fleet if you want to run 2 x 5-cars. Other potential bidders might say that you don't need that if you are running what amounts to a fixed 10-car set.

Given the comments about the over ordering if 5 coach units for GWR could the following be possible:
- offer to replace 2*5 coach GWR units with a single 9 coach unit (+4 middle coaches)
- use the spare 5 coach unit to create a new 10 coach unit (+5 middle coaches)

In doing so they could reduce GWR's lease costs whilst reducing the number of extra coaches they needed to build.

Obviously due to the IEP contact it could be tricky to do with that fleet, but it could be doable for the 802 fleet.

If there were 8*10 required, that would change the number of 5 coach units (802's at GWR) from 22 to 6 (or maybe 7 & still be down by 3 coaches in lease costs).

However if making changes to the IEP contact wasn't too hard you could create the following from the GWR 800's (36)
- 8*10 for LNER
- 12*9 for GWR (equivalent to 24*5)
- 16*5 for GWR
That would give GWR an increase in capacity to the equivalent of 40*5 coach units for the cost of 8 extra units.

Given each party is benefiting then there's likely to be an easier path than could of otherwise been the case.

 

[squizzler]

If the train is a ten car car and thus a different fleet to the existing 801's, would it be so disadvantageous to get in a stud of CAF Civity (as per TPE Nova 2)? Aside from being a divergence from the existing fleet, I suppose CAF has a longer order book to fulfil before building new orders.

 

[adamedwards]

As this is a speculative thread, could an option for LNER be to go for B/EMUS on the Lincoln and York stoppers (battery power from Newark to Lincoln) to free up the Azumas for the intercity services? The BMUS could be 379s with batteries as tested to Harwich, recharging on the run to and from KX. Interior refit to 2+2 seating and more luggage. Rival offer could be redundant 350s, if batteries can be fitted.

The freed AZUMAS might mean less need for bimodes so could see some diesels removed, reducing the servicing and fuel costs.

 

[adamedwards]

Or maybe its a job for those spare 442s plus a loco....