LM Super Offpeak - Break of Journey?

[Wolfie]

After a slightly unpleasant experience - was all right in the end but....- simple question: permited yes or no?

 

[radamfi]

After a slightly unpleasant experience - was all right in the end but....- simple question: permited yes or no?

NFM08 (Crewe to London Terminals route LDN MIDLAND ONLY) :

Break of journey is not
permitted except to change
trains at an intermediate
station or to access station
facilities.

 

[yorkie]

However LM themselves advise customers to start short, which comes under break of journey!

It is also questionable how enforceable it is that you can be restricted on the return portion. In general I would never expect anyone to be challenged, except perhaps on the outward portion.

Break of journey is defined as leaving station premises (except in certain circumstances, e.g. to change trains). Feel free to PM me what your experience was if you like.

 

[embers25]

Having done a bit of checking on Avantix all the London Midland Only fares I checked, both Off Peak and Super Off Peak, do not permit break of journey and so it is actually very possible that barriers will have been programmed to reject tickets and that barrier staff will have been made aware to watch out for it too.

Given Virgin also restrict break of journey on some/many of their fares now I'd expect staff to be even more aware. As for it not being enforceable to restrict break of journey on the return portion, it's in the fare manual therefore enforceable (whether ethically right or not). I agree that many staff aren't aware of break of journey rules and often don't object but certainly in SWT land we get issues with barrier staff not believing that a break is allowed in either direction (Winchester, Guildford, Basingstoke and Southampton all spring to mind immediately). Also I have had issues breaking journeys in the past at Watford J, Milton Keynes, Coventry, Birmingham NS, Wolverhampton and Crewe where I've had to argue with staff (sometimes barrier staff and sometimes an RPI blockade) which are all in London Midland area so to say you would never expect to be challenged may be your view but certainly isn't the case at MANY stations (Stevenage, Bristol TM, Bristol Parkway, Salisbury, Colchester to name a few more that spring to mind). Things have gotten better recently and problems are fewer and further between but certainly not never an issue and often depends on the person you encounter at the barrier.

I do agree that London Midland certainly have in the past encouraged starting short on some tickets so contradict themselves which makes this whole situation even more of a grey area. Given they are on this forum and normally very open and up front about solving issues maybe they can clarify what their current policy is on this as why add that restriction to their tickets if they don't care about it?

 

[yorkie]

As for it not being enforceable to restrict break of journey on the return portion, it's in the fare manual therefore enforceable (whether ethically right or not).

Not sure if something is enforceable or not if the public can't have access to it. I'd like to see a court rule on that. It could possibly be deemed an unfair term.

Also I'm sure some documentation refers to only the outward being restricted.

Also, see this.

 

[embers25]

I agree the standard descriptions for all ticket types contradict many of the restrictions the TOC's then go on to impose lol. It's also true that only nationalrail display the Avantix rules and even then don't display all of them. Certainly if you book on any site except through the link from nationalrail.co.uk then you have the argument that the extra rules are not displayed and so a protest should stand up in court you would have thought. However the problem is that over the years we have identifed numerous issues whereby the TOC's or ATOC are ripping us off or ignoring their rules but having won against SWT I know just how hard it is to win. Simple ticketing should have fixed many of these issues but instead its actually made it worse. Because I complained and won against SWT I am now blacklisted by them and if anyone calls with my last name they are automatically told the wait as only a supervisor is allowed to deal with my call! That to me is an admission by them that only their supervisors are trained well enough not to rip off callers which is a joke! Do they adjust their training of staff, no they just brush it under the carpet and pretend its not an issue. ATOC are the same. If only someone somewhere with enough money was willing to take them all on we could see a massive change in passengers rights but unfortunately apart from occasional defiance we all suffer on and those casual travellers keep getting overcharged. I hope that London Midland will clarify for us as out of all the companies they are the only one that has actually listened on here and tried to clarify and resolve issues (Wrexham and Shropshire obviously did too during their time). They also have the balls to explain some of their issues when they occur even when it is their fault.

 

[RJ]

After a slightly unpleasant experience - was all right in the end but....- simple question: permited yes or no?

No, not permitted. SOR appears to be the appropriate upgrade if anybody requires that flexibility.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because I complained and won against SWT I am now blacklisted by them and if anyone calls with my last name they are automatically told the wait as only a supervisor is allowed to deal with my call! That to me is an admission by them that only their supervisors are trained well enough not to rip off callers which is a joke!

What did you do?

 

[yorkie]

What did you do?

There was a long topic about what he did about a year or two ago. Basically he took a very long - but permitted - route from Woking to Slough (IIRC). This fare was valid by somewhere daft like Taunton, but embers25 didn't get that far before encountering staff who denied the existence of the Routeing Guide!

The DfT and ATOC are aware of this episode

I think there was a lot of FOI requests made after it by various people on this forum, this is what attracted us to the DfT's attention, apparently.

 

[swt_passenger]

Having done a bit of checking on Avantix all the London Midland Only fares I checked, both Off Peak and Super Off Peak, do not permit break of journey and so it is actually very possible that barriers will have been programmed to reject tickets and that barrier staff will have been made aware to watch out for it too.

They don't really need to program barriers to reject BOJs, they default to only passing tickets from or to their own location anyway. As they aren't usually programmed otherwise I wouldn't read anything into what the barriers do or don't do.

 

[embers25]

I made it as far as Salisbury and dealt repeatedly with ATOC. I didn't realise FOI requests were made which explains why SWT have me monitored!!! Though you have to say if ATOC and SWT spent as much time fixing issues than they do denying they exist and fighting people that highlight them then most things would be solved.

If barriers aren't programmed then how come some stations happily allow break of journey on almost every ticket (did someone really spend time programming them). Also Woking barriers reject tickets to Woking sometimes! Waterloo barriers often reject tickets with Route "+London" on them too!

 

[MikeWh]

I am now blacklisted by them and if anyone calls with my last name they are automatically told the wait as only a supervisor is allowed to deal with my call!

That is a huge over-reaction in my opinion. If I shared your surname I'd kick up quite a stink if they dared confirm their stance when I questioned them as to why I always had to wait for a supervisor.

Think what their staffing costs would escallate to if you changed your name by deedpoll to Smith or Brown!

 

[embers25]

lolol! I only found out when my dad called to point out that their website still wasn't allowing Network Cards to be used on the 0826 from Exeter (which has had an easement on it (or the 0825 it used to be) forever). He was being fobbed off until they asked his last name...then she asked if he was me and when he said he was my dad he was told that still counted and to wait while he was put through to a supervisor as there was a note on their system that all calls should only be fielded by a supervisor...I wondered if I had a case for discrimination?! The supervisor said they would fix the issue in a couple of days over a week ago and it is still not fixed so they still continue to knowingly overcharge passengers!!!!!! Which reminds me that I must call them!!

 

[yorkie]

As for discrimination, it depends, surely? If this puts you through to a supervisor quite rapidly then I would say that's a good thing (for you), I would very much like to speak to someone knowledgeable early on rather than go round and round in circles. I recall when I had problems with Thetrainline they were most reluctant to get someone clever to talk to you.

But if you are kept waiting for longer than others and/or dealt with more harshly or your calls are not responded, then I'd say you should have a case.

 

[embers25]

I agree that a fasttrack to a supervisor is good tho even at supervisor level I've only once found that elusive "clever" person at SWT Customer Services....beligerant, awkward, poorly trained, misinformed and "I know better than you" people seem to be available in abundance though! ATOC however, once I weeded through all the SWT types, did have clever people...they still fought my refund but did at least acknowledge a problem existed.

Ultimately ATOC use a routing guide they don't understand well enough to get even vaguely right and created simple ticketing that could hardly be more complex. The TOC's each use rouing guide software at their stations to determine valid routes but this software differs wildly from both the routing guide and online booking engines. SWT have told me they don't carry all fares on their machines as 98% of all commonly used fares is enough for now and they say thats fine as I could always buy online. The only problem with that is that as highlighted earlier their booking engine overcharges and also as highlighted in the "Three Bridges" thread SWT have no obligation to be impartial and so can still pick and choose what tickets they sell online.

In summary if I wish to go from Woking to Banbury using the Chiltern set Super Off Peak Period Return for example:

i) The routeing guide permits one way, the station system may say not valid.

ii) The station machine won't sell me this cheapest "simple" ticket and neither will some online sites as they don't have to. Great way to ensure routes where the TOC gets less share aren't offered.

iii) The only hope is wait in the huge queue at the ticket office (if SWT haven't already closed it) and force them to search high and low for it as apparently Chiltern set fares are well hidden according to all SWT and fGW staff I've asked.

iv) Then I have to convince the ticket office staff that a Super Off Peak ticket to Banbury is valid in peak from Woking to London or Reading as its only restricted from London or Reading Northwards.

v) On my return journey the departure board at Clapham J Plat 11 displays that Super Off Peak returns are not valid on trains between 1600 and 1900 which is not always true as my ticket is valid.

vi) My ticket won't work in the barriers in Waterloo at any time peak or off peak in either direction despite the routing being "+Any Permitted"

vii) To top it off it often gets refused at Woking both ways!!!!!

So there you have it...Simple Ticketing at it's best. This example also highlights why SWT should not be allowed to close ticket offices before updating their machines with all destinations. It's interesting as ticket offices must sell the full range of tickets if you ask but if the office is closed the machine that replaced it does not have to and neither does their website...In other words the perfect scam to overcharge passengers and its completely legal.

rant over...

 

[yorkie]

I don't know why you are having these problems, the fare exists in Avantix Traveller, and if anyone stops you regarding the validity just ask them politely to look it up on their Avantix machine and read out what it says (I suggest you take a copy to ensure they are reading it out correctly, but don't present it; they should look it up). Arm yourself with a Dictaphone.

Perhaps you could arrange to do this journey with Death one day, they may be less inclined to treat you like crap then

 

[Greenback]

Thank you embers. That is one of the best posts I have ever read about the ridiculous nature of our ticketing system!

It would have really cheered me up to see such a concise explanation of the difficulties that can arise, had I not been depressed that we are in this sort of situation in the first place.