Liverpool - Manchester

[kevb]

Hi all,

I've been commuting Liverpool - Manchester (Oxford Rd) daily for a while with a 16-25 railcard. The minimum fare increase hit me hard, taking my commute from £8 - £12

My question is - does the minimum fare apply to the return part of my ticket?

That is: if I got a one-off single to Manchester and then proceeded to purchase off-peak open return tickets Manchester - Liverpool for £8, using the outward part at 18:11 and then using the return part the following morning, at 08:22 when the minimum fare would usually apply, is this allowed?

I'd also be interested if anyone had any other ways to claw back my £4 daily increase :-x

Cheers!

Kev

 

[tony_mac]

A Liverpool - Preston season ticket is about £50 a week and allows travel via Manchester.

 

[clagmonster]

The valid routes for Liverpool-Preston are as follows:
Map CP


Maps ML+NW
Liverpool-Kirkby-Wigan-Preston
Liverpool-Kirkby-Wigan-Bolton-Preston
Liverpool-Kirkby-Wigan-Atherton-Manchester-Bolton-Preston
Liverpool-Huyton-Wigan-Preston
Liverpool-Huyton-Wigan-Bolton-Preston
Liverpool-Huyton-Wigan-Atherton-Manchester-Bolton-Preston
Liverpool-Huyton-Earlstown-Newton le Willows-Manchester-Bolton-Wigan

NL+NW
Liverpool-Hunts Cross-Warrington-Manchester-Bolton-Preston
Liverpool-Hunts Cross-Warrington-Manchester-Bolton-Wigan-Preston

Map WG
Liverpool-Hunts Cross-Warrington-Wigan-Preston

Also valid on any direct services from Liverpool-Preston via any other route.

A weekly season would set you back £49.70 for this, £190.90 for a monthly or £1988 annual.
This is as opposed to £12 for a day return on either route.

 

[kevb]

Ooh clever, I'll use this! Thanks loads.

I take it this will be ok at the automatic barrier at Manchester Oxford Rd?

Out of interest, does anyone know if the return ticket without minimum fare is valid as described above?

 

[tony_mac]

A £12 minimum fare applies for journeys made at or before 10am Monday to Friday excluding Advance Fares.

It doesn't specify either outward or return, so you can assume it applies to both.

If you know when you are travelling then you can also possibly buy advance tickets up to the day before travel on the Transpennine or East Midlands services. At short notice they won't save much on the open fare, but you can get a railcard discount on them.

 

[northwichcat]

If you fancy travelling at 07:16 in the morning, there's an advance ticket available for £4.60 tomorrow. Obviously, it won't always be the case that an advance fare is available for the next day on that train.

 

[yorkie]

Ooh clever, I'll use this! Thanks loads.

I take it this will be ok at the automatic barrier at Manchester Oxford Rd?

Out of interest, does anyone know if the return ticket without minimum fare is valid as described above?

The chances of being asked for the extra £4 is unlikely. Take the risk and see what happens - just be prepared to pay if asked. I'm also not sure how enforceable it is for the return portion. Be prepared to pay the excess if need be, but I suspect you won't be asked.

I highlighted the issue of the minimum fare increase from £8 to £16 for some fares a year ago, but all we were able to achieve is all of them becoming £12. The TOCs hadn't actually thought about the issue prior to simplification (surprise, surprise) despite the fact I highlighted it as a potential issue in my fares advice article before the event.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Ooh clever, I'll use this! Thanks loads.

I take it this will be ok at the automatic barrier at Manchester Oxford Rd?

Out of interest, does anyone know if the return ticket without minimum fare is valid as described above?

In short, you would be perfectly valid using the return part of an off-peak return as you describe, and you shouldn't be charged anything extra.

As a Guard on this route I have always been told that any restrictions or minimum fares apply to the outward portion of the fare only - indeed the restriction code of 2M says that same thing, no restriction on return travel. Thus, you could use the return portion as you describe. There are a few people that do the same thing on a variety of routes.

 

[dave4jackie]

In short, you would be perfectly valid using the return part of an off-peak return as you describe, and you shouldn't be charged anything extra.

As a Guard on this route I have always been told that any restrictions or minimum fares apply to the outward portion of the fare only - indeed the restriction code of 2M says that same thing, no restriction on return travel. Thus, you could use the return portion as you describe. There are a few people that do the same thing on a variety of routes.

that's wrong sorry the minimum applies to both the outward and return portion but you might get a guard who will let you travel

 

[glynn80]

that's wrong sorry the minimum applies to both the outward and return portion but you might get a guard who will let you travel

This is correct.

The FRPP (Staff Fares Manual) states the following regarding minimum fares and the portions they apply to:

16-25 Railcard

Time restrictions

No time restriction is applied to the Railcard although minimum fares are applicable to certain ticket types for both outward and return journeys before 1000 Mondays to Fridays between September and June (except Public Holidays).

Emphasis (underlining) added personally

 

[yorkie]

it's not really enforcable though!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

This is correct.

The FRPP (Staff Fares Manual) states the following regarding minimum fares and the portions they apply to:


Emphasis (underlining) added personally

Oh well, you learn something new everyday!!

I am meant to be the keen one at Picc for tickets, so If I hadn't picked up on that, then I am pretty sure no-one else will do!

 

[mumrar]

it's not really enforcable though!

But they can can't they, and it is done quite regularly. Since when has handing out good advice been about what is enforceable or not? I assume the OP came on here for the facts, rather than a list of how to chance a bit of fare dodging

 

[yorkie]

How can using a ticket that one of the most 'keen' guards (by his own admission!) based at Manchester Piccadilly thought was valid, in any way be described as "fare dodging"? that is absurd.

Hardly any guards will excess it, but if the guard does not excess it, then that's their choice. If they do excess it, then it could take a lot of explaining to a customer that a ticket that is supposedly "valid on any train" for the return leg actually isn't, especially given that NR have gone on about how "simple" the fares are these days!

Meanwhile there are many actual fare dodgers who literally dodge paying any fare because they are staff People who are not excessed on ridiculously complex tickets purporting to be valid on any train are not, in any way, "dodgers".

 

[glynn80]

How can using a ticket that one of the most 'keen' guards (by his own admission!) based at Manchester Piccadilly thought was valid, in any way be described as "fare dodging"? that is absurd.

Because the ticket isn't valid for use on that train at that time?