Leeds - Sheffield ? (For the Crayonista's)

[Halifaxlad]

This new thread in 'Infrastructure & Stations' concerning this 'Network North'
(A ground has an idea for a "Rail North" scheme to rival the "Northern Powerhouse" rail plan)
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ern-powerhouse-rail-plan.212078/#post-4897243) got me thinking more about how Leeds & Sheffield could be connected by a brand new line (mostly) so here's an idea of an alternative that I've been refining, based on an actual map I might add!



Yellow: Existing
Red: New
Blue: Reinstated

Basically it heads East out of Leeds (I would four track that) before tunneling under Halton opposite from Nevillie Hill depot, coming out adjacent to the M1 before running adjacent to the A1, then past Knottingley before rejoining the existing network at Womersley and carrying on to where it meets the ECML at Thorpe Marsh to Doncaster. From Doncaster, it would use the Shireoaks line to cross over before proceeding on a new route adjacent to the M18, M1 before rejoining the existing network at Catcliffe and heading into the existing Sheffield Midland station.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1UIpYQrzITVHwU8EnaBHNUKRx2IJt_r8t&usp=sharing

Admittedly the tunnel under Halton would be expensive but it could also be used for services to Newcastle via York & Hull via Selby.

​

 

[Iskra]

It’s very circuitous, which would make it unnecessarily expensive and slower than possible.

Might I suggest going back to the drawing board, drawing a straight line with a ruler between Leeds and Sheffield and following that as closely as geography allows.

We already have multiple slow routes between Leeds and Sheffield without going via Doncaster.

It is also already possible to reach Doncaster travelling East out of Leeds station and some ECML services used to do this I don't know if they still do. There's also another possible route that the GC services used to cover between Wakefield Kirkgate and Doncaster to reach Doncaster. Your proposal would be a lot of effort for something that is not direct and already has many existing route possibilities.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Might I suggest going back to the drawing board, drawing a straight line with a ruler between Leeds and Sheffield and following that as closely as geography allows.

That's exactly how I wouldn't plan any rail line, unless you wanted the most expensive line with a lot of opposition from Environmentalists!

Your proposal would be a lot of effort for something that is not direct and already has many existing route possibilities.

Ah but this would...

1) address the capacity issue East of Leeds (potential junction after Micklefield)

2) frees up capacity on the existing line between Sheffield & Doncaster whilst speeding up services.

3) dramatically speed up services between Leeds & Doncaster, essentially making Don about as far away as York is by train from Leeds potentially less.

Existing lines simply wouldn't be able to do that!

 

[edwin_m]

That's exactly how I wouldn't plan any rail line, unless you wanted the most expensive line with a lot of opposition from Environmentalists!

You obviously wouldn't follow it blindly but it's a good place to start. The route you show is near enough twice as long as the straight line so would need to have twice the average speed to achieve a comparable journey time. The M1 stays pretty close to the straight line too.

As a starting point, how about picking up the HS2 alignment southwards from Leeds and looking at connecting it better to Sheffield? This has the benefit of having been developed to minimise cost and impact, albeit for a route heading southwards rather than one into Sheffield. It is still east of the straight line but only far enough to avoid the worst of the hilly country around Barnsley. The proposed connection to the existing line near Thurnscoe for Sheffield-Leeds trains looks like something of an afterthought and a better one may be possible, perhaps near Wath or Rawmarsh or even picking up the Workshop line somewhere. A connection onto one of the lines into Doncaster would speed up that route too.

 

[JKF]

Leeds-Doncaster is already pretty fast, apart from the crawl out of Leeds. I don’t see the benefit in creating a new circuitous route that wouldn’t save that much time. Better to miss out Doncaster altogether, though a more direct (straight line) route to Sheffield will have issues with mining subsidence (which I think was one of the reasons the more direct midland route was closed?). I’ve also long been of the opinion that Leeds-London services should be speeded up by some of them missing out Wakefield, but that’s another discussion altogether.

Four tracking east of Leeds would have already been done if it were practical, but it isn’t, it runs on a two-track viaduct through the city centre, bordered by hotels, shops and housing. Unless you can provide a second level above the existing viaduct there isn’t really a way through. You’d get more benefit for less by looking at the western side of the station and ways to speed up or bypass that (perhaps involving the viaduct through Holbeck that was closed when the MK4 coaches were introduced, I believe because they were too long to get round the curves, although the station end was used for stabling for a while)

 

[edwin_m]

Leeds-Doncaster is already pretty fast, apart from the crawl out of Leeds. I don’t see the benefit in creating a new circuitous route that wouldn’t save that much time. Better to miss out Doncaster altogether, though a more direct (straight line) route to Sheffield will have issues with mining subsidence (which I think was one of the reasons the more direct midland route was closed?). I’ve also long been of the opinion that Leeds-London services should be speeded up by some of them missing out Wakefield, but that’s another discussion altogether.

Four tracking east of Leeds would have already been done if it were practical, but it isn’t, it runs on a two-track viaduct through the city centre, bordered by hotels, shops and housing. Unless you can provide a second level above the existing viaduct there isn’t really a way through. You’d get more benefit for less by looking at the western side of the station and ways to speed up or bypass that (perhaps involving the viaduct through Holbeck that was closed when the MK4 coaches were introduced, I believe because they were too long to get round the curves, although the station end was used for stabling for a while)

Some of Leeds-Doncaster is relatively slow. I believe it also suffers from the mining issues that affected the Midland route (which crossed it just east of Wakefield).

Four-tracking out of Leeds would indeed be a fairly major exercise, but based on aerial mapping I don't think it's insuperable. From the end of the existing four-track up to Marsh Lane there seems to be only one building blocking a parallel viaduct to the south, a generic 80s office block on the corner of The Calls and Crown Street. Not sure if those are gravestones in St John's park though? You'd probably place Marsh Lane bridge to take the existing tracks onto new tracks further north and slew the new southern pair into the existing.

 

[YorksLad12]

Some of Leeds-Doncaster is relatively slow. I believe it also suffers from the mining issues that affected the Midland route (which crossed it just east of Wakefield).

Four-tracking out of Leeds would indeed be a fairly major exercise, but based on aerial mapping I don't think it's insuperable. From the end of the existing four-track up to Marsh Lane there seems to be only one building blocking a parallel viaduct to the south, a generic 80s office block on the corner of The Calls and Crown Street. Not sure if those are gravestones in St John's park though? You'd probably place Marsh Lane bridge to take the existing tracks onto new tracks further north and slew the new southern pair into the existing.

On another forum, years ago, I saw a suggestion that made sense: a twin-track viaduct from Leeds Station (east of Bidge End, the existing throat is wide enough for four tracks I think) to Marsh Lane, south of the existing viaduct. This would cost you at most three buildings, one of which is a low-rise (Backroom, formerly The Elbow Room) and could be rebuilt under the new viaduct; the other the new build you mention. Businesses under the arches would have to move or decant, I guess.

As for the gravestones... if we can destroy ancient woodland for HS2 we can relocate the graves. We might even be able to do them better justice than they have at present.

In theory you don't need any of that for faster Sheffield services; you need the new HS2 platforms which come out at right-angles to the existing station and head south-south-east towards the former Midland station at Crown Point, joining the existing former Midland route for a bit before heading south on the new HS2 alignment to Sheffield.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Leeds-Doncaster is already pretty fast, apart from the crawl out of Leeds. I don’t see the benefit in creating a new circuitous route that wouldn’t save that much time. Better to miss out Doncaster altogether, though a more direct (straight line) route to Sheffield will have issues with mining subsidence (which I think was one of the reasons the more direct midland route was closed?). I’ve also long been of the opinion that Leeds-London services should be speeded up by some of them missing out Wakefield, but that’s another discussion altogether.

If bypassing Wakefield is allowed, would the route via Woodlesford, Turners Lane Junction, Hare Park Junction and South Kirby Junction be a much cheaper way of reducing journey time between Leeds and Sheffield? Even if substantial sums needed to be spent re-aligning the Turners Lane spur for higher speeds, it would still cost less than any completely new route.

 

[Bigman]

If Leeds/Doncaster to Sheffield was ever electrified, would I be right in thinking that the overhead power supply would not be compatible with the Supertram wires through Rotherham Central? Could this perhaps be a case for re-pening Masborough station on the main line? Thoughts please.

 

[edwin_m]

If Leeds/Doncaster to Sheffield was ever electrified, would I be right in thinking that the overhead power supply would not be compatible with the Supertram wires through Rotherham Central? Could this perhaps be a case for re-pening Masborough station on the main line? Thoughts please.

The wiring for the tram-train is energised at 750V like the tramway, but is apparently suitable for easy conversion to 25kV to match railway standards. The vehicles are able to use either voltage. So electrification of the main lines in the Rotherham area would include converting the tram-train overhead and the service could continue as it is now.

 

[D365]

The wiring for the tram-train is energised at 750V like the tramway, but is apparently suitable for easy conversion to 25kV to match railway standards. The vehicles are able to use either voltage. So electrification of the main lines in the Rotherham area would include converting the tram-train overhead and the service could continue as it is now.

Absolutely, that was part of the thinking behind the Rotherham trial. And why it cost so much for a ”simple” tram extension.

 

[YorksLad12]

If Leeds/Doncaster to Sheffield was ever electrified, would I be right in thinking that the overhead power supply would not be compatible with the Supertram wires through Rotherham Central? Could this perhaps be a case for re-pening Masborough station on the main line? Thoughts please.

The wiring for the tram-train is energised at 750V like the tramway, but is apparently suitable for easy conversion to 25kV to match railway standards. The vehicles are able to use either voltage. So electrification of the main lines in the Rotherham area would include converting the tram-train overhead and the service could continue as it is now.

One of the reasons the pilot was two years late and four times the budget was that Network Rail decided to make the system suitable for conversion at a later date, rather than build to tram standards and replace later. Masborough won't reopen, for all the reasons it was closed in the first place. Trouble is, the only route you'd electrify to/through Sheffield at the moment is the stretch from Moorthorpe through Central, all other services would require extensive electrification throughout (unless you ran a Sheffield-Rotherham-Doncaster service with no extension beyond Doncaster).