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IRCAS letters arrive late or not at all

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Nik7W1

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Has anyone had problems with IRCAS letters arriving late or not at all?

They claim I received notices of a rejected appeal against a Penalty Fare Notice by post but I did not get the letters.

This meant the fine they said I owed escalated from £40 to £140.

They deny not sending the letters and say it is a Royal Mail issue. Strange that this should happen twice since I have had no other letters go missing.

When they did send a letter it arrived 12 days after the date it was written.

Thanks in advance.
 
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LAX54

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Has anyone had problems with IRCAS letters arriving late or not at all?

They claim I received notices of a rejected appeal against a Penalty Fare Notice by post but I did not get the letters.

This meant the fine they said I owed escalated from £40 to £140.

They deny not sending the letters and say it is a Royal Mail issue. Strange that this should happen twice since I have had no other letters go missing.

When they did send a letter it arrived 12 days after the date it was written.

Thanks in advance.


One would ask why they need to send a penalty fare letter out at all ? and for more than one 'offence' too !
 

Bletchleyite

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It is worth noting that "pay and appeal" is the correct way to proceed, and that way any escalation of cost is avoided. If the appeal succeeds, a refund is made.

Payment does not constitute acceptance that the PF was correctly issued. (Maybe that should be made clearer?)
 

Fare-Cop

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The process that I think the OP is referring to is that s/he was issued a Penalty Fare Notice, handed to the traveller at the time of travel.

The notice allows the traveller 21 days to pay or appeal in writing

After 21 days, if they have not had a reply, IRCAS will send a letter and an admin charge is added, with a further 21 days to pay, but the opportunity of an appeal is past.

After another 21 days if the traveller doesn't reply IRCAS send another request for payment with further costs added.

If that isn't paid after another 21 days it is usually referred for prosecution.

I am always somewhat sceptical of complaints about 'not received the letter' although of course non-delivery may sometimes occur.

I always think it's pretty irrelevant if the traveller hasn't appealed anyway, because the traveller will have been handed the original printed Penalty Fare Notice at the time of travel.

If the traveller doesn't respond to the notice that is hardly the fault of IRCAS or Royal Mail.
 
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Nik7W1

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Fare-Cop - 'I am always somewhat sceptical of complaints about 'not received the letter' although of course non-delivery may sometimes occur.' - this comment is not appreciated at all.

I am trying to locate any pattern of systemic errors with IRCAS. Sometimes it is necessary for people to group together to fight large companies.

'If the traveller doesn't respond to the notice that is hardly the fault of IRCAS or Royal Mail. ' Of course I responded - I made an appeal and did not receive a reply to it. This is in my original post.
 

bb21

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'If the traveller doesn't respond to the notice that is hardly the fault of IRCAS or Royal Mail. ' Of course I responded - I made an appeal and did not receive a reply to it. This is in my original post.

Did you send it via any secure means such as recorded delivery?
 

Fare-Cop

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Fare-Cop - 'I am always somewhat sceptical of complaints about 'not received the letter' although of course non-delivery may sometimes occur.' - this comment is not appreciated at all..

I am sorry that you feel it is not appreciated, my comment was actually a generalisation not a specific 'swipe' in relation to your case however, if you are offended I am genuinely sorry.

I am trying to locate any pattern of systemic errors with IRCAS. Sometimes it is necessary for people to group together to fight large companies

If you have a specific issue with a case currently in hand at IRCAS that is not resolved and may be likely to escalate to prosecution of an unpaid fare, I can only say that it might be better to concentrate on that.

If not resolved and if forwarded to prosecution these are matters that will be heard in a criminal Court list and my suggestion would be to concentrate on avoiding that if possible.

You probably will not want to read this, but it's true anyway.

I know of a recent case involving a similar matter (unpaid Penalty Fare) that ended up with a Summons and a not guilty plea by the traveller, which was effectively put as a matter of principle. The case was adjourned for trial and the witness warned to attend.

To cut a long story short, when asked to restate his plea a District Judge at the trial hearing asked the defendant 'had he sought qualified legal advice?' to which the answer was "No, and the defendant went into an explanation about 'what he'd heard about other such cases and started to put forward his opinion about what was wrong with the process..' at which point the DJ stopped him rather abruptly, reminding the defendant that he really should have concentrated on dealing with his situation. The DJ informed the traveller that he would put the matter back for a short while list and that he would be very well advised to seek legal advice outside of the Courtroom, but did state that he was not able to compel him to do so.

This was unusual, but I think the DJ was being more than fair in giving further opportunity for the defendant to see what was happening.

On returning to the Court a short while later, the defendant said that he had spoken with the Duty Solicitor (who had advised that he would not represent as the matter did not attract legal aid, but had given a little free advice) and the defendant told the DJ that he wished to stick with his original plea.

It became a very expensive lesson in failing to recognise a flawed principle.

Outside Court later, the Duty Solicitor confided in the Prosecutor that he had stressed that a guilty plea to a strict liability charge was the best that he was able to suggest, but that particular defendant was adamant that his action would prevail.

'If the traveller doesn't respond to the notice that is hardly the fault of IRCAS or Royal Mail. ' Of course I responded - I made an appeal and did not receive a reply to it. This is in my original post.

Again, this was a generalisation and I am sorry if that wasn't clear.

I really do hope that you will read this in the spirit that it is intended, in an effort to draw your thoughts back to your own case and to try to avoid any escalation.

As many have said before regarding these cases, it is usually best to pay up and appeal again later so as to negate (as far as possible) any further action
 
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DaveNewcastle

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. . .
This meant the fine they said I owed escalated from £40 to £140.

I am trying to locate any pattern of systemic errors with IRCAS. Sometimes it is necessary for people to group together to fight large companies.

. . . . the defendant told the DJ that he wished to stick with his original plea.

It became a very expensive lesson in failing to recognise a flawed principle.

. . . . an effort to draw your thoughts back to your own case and to try to avoid any escalation.
There isn't enough information to give detailled advice to Nik7W1, but it seems clear to me that Fare-Cop is exactly correct in recognising that Nik7W1's best outcome will follow from a shift of focus from finding fault with IRCAS or the Royal Mail, to mitigating against the facts of the incident which, I must assume, by themselves, and without any regard to IRCAS, would adequatey substantiate a Criminal prosecution and with Evidence to secure a conviction.

I have no objection to a survey of the effectiveness of delivery of outbound communications from IRCAS. As a project it seems quite interesting and worthy. But that investigation really should not be confused with any Evidence which, on cross-examination, would go anywhere to undermine a charge of fare evasion or of a failure to produce a valid ticket when requested.
It doesn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I know of a recent case involving a similar matter (unpaid Penalty Fare) that ended up with a Summons and a not guilty plea by the traveller, which was effectively put as a matter of principle.

. . .

The DJ informed the traveller that he would put the matter back for a short while list and that he would be very well advised to seek legal advice outside of the Courtroom, but did state that he was not able to compel him to do so.

This was unusual, but I think the DJ was being more than fair in giving further opportunity for the defendant to see what was happening. . . .
I've seen a few Prosecutions, Appeals and Judicial Reviews by 'litigants in person' (LIPs) being shown such compassionate assistance (including passing round the tissue papers!) in the last few years. There does seem to be a move towards showing extraordinary sympathy and compasion towards LIPs, even if the material in front of the Court appears to be very weak. Not that this 'extra time' in itself has any bearing on the final decision, which will be made on the basis of te strict facts of the Evidence and the Law.
 
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island

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It is particularly amusing when the LIPs start to recite arguments grounded in the Magna Carta, Bill of Rights &c which were clearly obtained from the internet.
 
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