Introduction of Mark 2 air conditioned stock

[Mogz]

I seem to recall that there were some air conditioned Mk 2D coaches with side-corridor compartments.

When were the last of these withdrawn?

I believe they were the last hauled stock to feature compartments.

Of course the 442 units which had a few compartments were mk 3 derived, weren’t they?

 

[The exile]

I seem to recall that there were some air conditioned Mk 2D coaches with side-corridor compartments.

When were the last of these withdrawn?

I believe they were the last hauled stock to feature compartments.

Of course the 442 units which had a few compartments were mk 3 derived, weren’t they?

Don’t know withdrawal dates - Mk2D BFKs were 17139 -17172

 

[hexagon789]

I seem to recall that there were some air conditioned Mk 2D coaches with side-corridor compartments.

When were the last of these withdrawn?

I believe they were the last hauled stock to feature compartments.

Of course the 442 units which had a few compartments were mk 3 derived, weren’t they?

The last of the Mk2D FK and BFK were withdrawn in mid-1991 according to the Harris Mk2 book.

They were the last day coaches built with compartments but obviously the Mk3 sleepers were newer and had compartments.

Yes, the 442s were full-length Mk3 bodyshell (as opposed to other Mk3-derived units which had shorter bodyshells). One driving trailer originally had six compartments of six seats each, plus 14 seats arranged 2+2 in an open saloon.

 

[sprinterguy]

I seem to recall that there were some air conditioned Mk 2D coaches with side-corridor compartments.

When were the last of these withdrawn?

I believe they were the last hauled stock to feature compartments.

DRS had one of the compartmented Mk 2D BFKs in use in a Cumbrian Coast rake for a short while in Summer 2015, before the push-pull operation commenced with DBSOs.

 

[70014IronDuke]

1975 is the first time they appear in a Carriage Marshalling Book - 4 Sheffields each way, other workings being either PV Mk2 or Mk1.

Railway Observer June 1975 gives the first air conditioned train on the Midland Main Line as the up Master Cutler on 7 April 1975.

The formation is listed, all are MarkIIFs except MkIID FK M13610.

Further trains were air conditioned from the start of the summer 1975 timetable.

Apologies for later reply, have been 'out of it' for a few weeks.

This is perplexing to me, as I'll explain.

First of all, I made a mistake in my original response. I remember the introduction as October 74 (not 73, a I first wrote). And I have a very definite memory why I think this.

At that time, I was working in the LMR CM&EE HQ, Nelson Street, Derby. I can't remember the exact layout of the offices, but there was some kind of pedestrian bridge-corridor between two buildings, probably on the second or third floor.

Looking south from this bridge, one had a panoramic view of the southern approaches to Derby station, and one morning, that October, it must have been c 09.30 or so, when I was crossing over, in the low, but bright light of the rising autumn sun, I saw a gleaming, ex-works looking 45/1 coming round the bend off the London line with an equally gleaming (at least in my mind's eye) set of Air-Con MK2s.

It really was quite a beautiful sight.

And I remember thinking: Of course, they'd announced the transfer of Air-con stock to the Midland. And this would have been probably in the first week of the new service. The train would have almost certainly been the 07.45 St Pancras - Sheffield, ie the first down Sheffield of the day, and I was very pleased to see the MML at last getting Air-Con services.

Now this can't have been May, 1975, because I left Derby eight weeks or so later, that Christmas.

But now you tell me schedule services didn't start until 7-8 months later, according to the records.

Very confusing. Maybe I saw some sort of test train and built up the explanation in my "memory" later on. And I promise I wasn't taking anything before starting work that day - the 45/1 and the stock were all standard BR blue and grey - no colours of the rainbow present!

As an aside, @hexagon789 , you write the other workings were Mk2 PVs or Mk1.
By Mk2 PVs, I assume you mean Mk 2Cs ?
Interesting, because I can't ever remember noticing Mk 2Cs on the Midland, but maybe I wasn't looking properly, though in truth, I only used the Midland maybe three times after 1974.

 

[D6130]

As an aside, @hexagon789 , you write the other workings were Mk2 PVs or Mk1.
By Mk2 PVs, I assume you mean Mk 2Cs ?
Interesting, because I can't ever remember noticing Mk 2Cs on the Midland, but maybe I wasn't looking properly, though in truth, I only used the Midland maybe three times after 1974.

Mark 2 PVs - Pressure Ventilated - include Mark 2z/a/b/c.

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies for later reply, have been 'out of it' for a few weeks.

This is perplexing to me, as I'll explain.

First of all, I made a mistake in my original response. I remember the introduction as October 74 (not 73, a I first wrote). And I have a very definite memory why I think this.

At that time, I was working in the LMR CM&EE HQ, Nelson Street, Derby. I can't remember the exact layout of the offices, but there was some kind of pedestrian bridge-corridor between two buildings, probably on the second or third floor.

Looking south from this bridge, one had a panoramic view of the southern approaches to Derby station, and one morning, that October, it must have been c 09.30 or so, when I was crossing over, in the low, but bright light of the rising autumn sun, I saw a gleaming, ex-works looking 45/1 coming round the bend off the London line with an equally gleaming (at least in my mind's eye) set of Air-Con MK2s.

It really was quite a beautiful sight.

And I remember thinking: Of course, they'd announced the transfer of Air-con stock to the Midland. And this would have been probably in the first week of the new service. The train would have almost certainly been the 07.45 St Pancras - Sheffield, ie the first down Sheffield of the day, and I was very pleased to see the MML at last getting Air-Con services.

Now this can't have been May, 1975, because I left Derby eight weeks or so later, that Christmas.

But now you tell me schedule services didn't start until 7-8 months later, according to the records.

Very confusing. Maybe I saw some sort of test train and built up the explanation in my "memory" later on. And I promise I wasn't taking anything before starting work that day - the 45/1 and the stock were all standard BR blue and grey - no colours of the rainbow present!

As an aside, @hexagon789 , you write the other workings were Mk2 PVs or Mk1.
By Mk2 PVs, I assume you mean Mk 2Cs ?
Interesting, because I can't ever remember noticing Mk 2Cs on the Midland, but maybe I wasn't looking properly, though in truth, I only used the Midland maybe three times after 1974.

It's simply what the documentation shows, there's nothing to say Mk2 air-cons didn't appear before the date it applied from.

PV, as D6130 states, "Pressure Ventilated" - so any non air-conditioned Mk2s.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Mark 2 PVs - Pressure Ventilated - include Mark 2z/a/b/c.

Yeah, sorry. It had passed me by that they were all PV.

It's simply what the documentation shows, there's nothing to say Mk2 air-cons didn't appear before the date it applied from.

Oh, so I might be right after all? (Except the Railway Observer doesn't agree with me.)

 

[65477]

The first air conditioned coaches were the Mark IIDs. They first ran on the East Coast Main Line starting on 12 July 1971 with 3 trains in each direction between Kings Cross and Newcastle. The 8 car flyers to and from West Yorkshire then went over to Mark IIDs on 23 August 1971. The premier Scottish trains followed later in 1971.

Although I am late to this thread, I am able to post the first two pictures that I took of Mark II Air-Con sets I took. The first is at York and the second is taken just outside Leeds (the Deltic is 9017).





These were taken on a Eastern Region Rover ticket and according to my records were both on 8th June 1971, which pre-dates the dates quoted above. I don't have the original records and only my image catalogue which was transcribed from the original many years ago.

 

[Taunton]

Were ECML services ETH before the arrival of the Mk2D, which had to be, or were the dual heat Mk2A to C formations steam heated, as they would need to be with non-ETH locos.

 

[hexagon789]

Were ECML services ETH before the arrival of the Mk2D, which had to be, or were the dual heat Mk2A to C formations steam heated, as they would need to be with non-ETH locos.

They were 2As and usually booked for electric heat after 1970-ish.

Originally they were steam heated.

The dual heat capability of the 2Z, 2A, 2B and 2C no doubt was found very useful in its flexibility as intended.

 

[Magdalia]

Were ECML services ETH before the arrival of the Mk2D, which had to be, or were the dual heat Mk2A to C formations steam heated, as they would need to be with non-ETH locos.

No. When air braked markIIAs were introduced on the ECML in 1967 the trains were steam heat. Fitting ETH to the Deltics started in 1970, in preparation for the arrival of the MarkIIDs.

 

[Ken H]

No. When air braked markIIAs were introduced on the ECML in 1967 the trains were steam heat. Fitting ETH to the Deltics started in 1970, in preparation for the arrival of the MarkIIDs.

Was there much difference in the ETH index of a ptessure ventilated Mk2 and an aircon Mk2. Remember, steam heat came from a boiler but ETH eas typically an extra alternator attached to the same output shaft as the alternator for traction. So a higher ETH load would reduce locomotive traction performance.

 

[Magdalia]

Was there much difference in the ETH index of a ptessure ventilated Mk2 and an aircon Mk2.

MarkIIAs were ETH4, MarkIIDs were ETH 5.

ETH eas typically an extra alternator attached to the same output shaft as the alternator for traction.

When MarkIID aircon stock was introduced, the diesel locomotives hauling the trains had DC generators for traction, not alternators.

In the case of the Deltics, the ETH power came off the traction generators.

 

[cambsy]

Does Mk2 Railtour stock have reliable Air con on hot summer days or is it not worth trusting it?. I am on tour on 9th august and am hoping the Mk2 Air Con is at least half decent as doing Premier Dining and hope not sweaty all day.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

There's a scene in the first episode of "Whatever happened to the Likely Lads" from 1973 where Bob and Terry are in a train returning to the North East. It has compartments, so clearly Mk1. Was Mk1 compartment stock still in use out of Kings Cross by then?

 

[Sun Chariot]

There's a scene in the first episode of "Whatever happened to the Likely Lads" from 1973 where Bob and Terry are in a train returning to the North East. It has compartments, so clearly Mk1. Was Mk1 compartment stock still in use out of Kings Cross by then?

If it's the scene I'm thinking of (it's many years since I watched it), I think it's a Mk2 pressure ventilated FK. I'll trawl YouTube, to watch it again

Edit: just found the episode. Terry's travelling in a Mk1 SK as you rightly said.

 

[hexagon789]

There's a scene in the first episode of "Whatever happened to the Likely Lads" from 1973 where Bob and Terry are in a train returning to the North East. It has compartments, so clearly Mk1. Was Mk1 compartment stock still in use out of Kings Cross by then?

On certain workings, yes.

Mostly Fridays or Saturdays only or summer dated workings.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2025 ==

If it's the scene I'm thinking of (it's many years since I watched it), I think it's a Mk2 pressure ventilated FK. I'll trawl YouTube, to watch it again

Could also be that, there were still some booked Mk2A workings as well.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Could also be that, there were still some booked Mk2A workings as well.

I just found the episode and scene in question - the "Mk1 SK compartment" looks distinctly like a TV studio mock-up...

 

[hexagon789]

I just found the episode and scene in question - the "Mk1 SK compartment" looks distinctly like "TV studio mock-up"....

Oh well.

Not wrong though, still quite a few Mk1 workings to Leeds and Newcastle, just more reliefs than the normal services.

 

[Ken H]

I just found the episode and scene in question - the "Mk1 SK compartment" looks distinctly like a TV studio mock-up...

BBC had half a Mk 1 compartment. It features in quite a few BBC programs of that era.
The Porridge sequence had a 'peak' leaving St Pancras to the sound of a contempoary DMU.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The Porridge sequence had a 'peak' leaving St Pancras to the sound of a contempoary DMU.

I always suspected those big type 4s actually had nothing more inside than a couple of BUT / Leyland 150hp engines...

 

[Ashley Hill]

BBC had half a Mk 1 compartment. It features in quite a few BBC programs of that era.
The Porridge sequence had a 'peak' leaving St Pancras to the sound of a contempoary DMU.

But the peak is in the blocks.

 

[AY1975]

In the 90s Liverpool St - Norwich acquired (AKA got dumped with) the unique set of airline seated Mk2s (68xx??) which I think were formerly a Peterborough commuter set?

Within Anglia they were referred to as Mk2g (never an official designation) and one of each was added to the line’s 10 sets bringing a 7th vehicle type* into the formations.


*DBSO/TSO/TSO(airline)/TSO(powerlead)/Buffet/FO/BG

Yes, and as I recall also in the early 90s Liverpool Street-Norwich got a load of Mark 2Fs that had been cascaded from the West Coast Main Line following the acquisition of a load of Mark 3s displaced from ScotRail after the replacement of their push-pull sets with Class 158 DMUs. The Mark 2F DBSOs were also transferred from ScotRail to the Anglia Region at about the same time.

This enabled the Anglia Region to stand down its Mark 2Ds that had worked the route since 1980 as mentioned above.

I seem to remember that those airline seated Mark 2s were also used as seated accommodation on Anglo-Scottish sleepers for a time in the late 80s and early 90s.

 

[JonathanH]

I seem to remember that those airline seated Mark 2s were also used as seated accommodation on Anglo-Scottish sleepers for a time in the late 80s and early 90s.

I think those were Mark 2d First Open conversions in the 62xx series, rather than the Mark 2f First Open conversions in the 68xx series that ended up in Anglia.

 

[Helvellyn]

I think those were Mark 2d First Open conversions in the 62xx series, rather than the Mark 2f First Open conversions in the 68xx series that ended up in Anglia.

Yes, the Mark 2D TSOs converted from FOs had a low density 58 seat layout, as opposed to the high density 74 seat layout in the Mark 2F TSOs converted from SOs (which in turn had been declassified from FOs). Both used IC80 seats, as used in the APT and some Mark 2 TSOs/BSOs refurbished by Network SouthEast for the loco-hauled Cambridge services out of Liverpool Street.

 

[AY1975]

The internal door latches allowed the door to be opened from the inside, without needing to lower the droplight and turn the outside handle. These were usual in MarkI and early MarkII loco hauled stock and also first generation DMUs.

I never knew that loco-hauled Mark 1s (apart from non-corridor Mark 1s) or Mark 2s at least up to and including the 2Ds ever had them: I'm fairly sure that they had all been removed by the late 1970s or early 80s.

Summer 1975 for the first air-con vehicles, they were re-allocated from the WCML by introduction of the Mk3s.

Vehicles were mostly 2E, with some 2D BFK, FK and FOs.

I also seem to remember travelling in a Mark 2F TSO on the Midland Main Line, I think in the autumn of 1982, during the transition period when half of MML services were HSTs and half were still loco-hauled. Not sure if any 2Fs were ever allocated to the MML at least on a long-term basis, though: maybe some 2Fs were temporarily transferred from the WCML to the MML around that time.