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Intention to prosecute - standard class ticket in a first class compartment

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Mutant Lemming

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To the scaremongers trawling this forum and posting antagonising messages you need to get a life.

.

The thing is even the scaremongers and those who antagonise you serve a purpose here. It can show the attitude certain people have towards the matter in question and the hostility you can face from some quarters should you have to go to court in such a situation. Better to encounter that here than discover it at a court. You could encounter a judge/magistrate who was former FCC revenue staff even.
 
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Flamingo

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The thing is even the scaremongers and those who antagonise you serve a purpose here. It can show the attitude certain people have towards the matter in question and the hostility you can face from some quarters should you have to go to court in such a situation. Better to encounter that here than discover it at a court. You could encounter a judge/magistrate who was former FCC revenue staff even.

I have a friend who is a solicitor who specialises in criminal defence (very successfully). He says that if he was a magistrate, he would be a lot harsher than those he comes up against, partially because he knows that a lot of the pleas for mitigation are so much BS, and deserve to be ignored!
 

Solent&Wessex

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Thanks to the (good) advice on this forum I was able to settle this matter out of court for £200.

To the scaremongers trawling this forum and posting antagonising messages you need to get a life.

The majority of people that will come to this forum for advice will be concerned about the threat of a criminal record and will be first time ‘offenders.’

I very much doubt that repeat ‘offenders’ (I guess that have abused/insulted the former/current ticket inspectors posting on the forum) would even bother to look into the potential consequences of court action/fines.

Based on my experience I can safely say that people should not overly concern themselves about this. The process will take about five months. You will NOT receive a criminal record nor a fine anywhere near some of the ridiculous numbers posted on this thread and on other discussions I have read on this forum.

I think how a situation resolves itself varies very much on how it is dealt with by the passenger / accused.

It certainly is possible to get a big fine and criminal record for a first time matter such as this, but it is - as you have found out - no means inevitable.

Just perusing some recent court results I note that of 24 cases for a certain week, 3 were settled out of court, 1 person wrote in to the court and pleaded Guilty, and 14 were found guilty at court based on the written statement of the inspector (probably in their absence). (a few were adjourned or withdrawn for various reasons). The settled out of court paid the company total monies of £140, £70 and £80. The one who pleaded guilty got fined £115, plus £130 costs plus the fare avoided. The rest got fined between £200 and £300 plus costs, plus the fare avoided.

Most of the "avoided fares" were low in value. This just shows the different outcomes that occur depending on how it is handled. In this case I suspect the 3 who settled out of court approached it like you did, dealt with it when they should, and got to pay a lot lower amount by not leaving it too late or burying their head in the sand. The 1 who pleaded guilty to the court let it go a bit further but dealt with it before it was too late and got away with a lower fine. The rest, who seemingly did nothing, got the noticeably higher fines.

Another week, a different court, and I noted 10 Out of court settlements agreeing figures between £60 - £130 plus the fare avoided. 3 pleaded guilty to the court and got fined £30 plus costs of £130 plus the fare avoided. 13 got found guilty based on the written statement of the inspector and got fined between £175 and £525, plus £130 costs, plus the fare avoided.

It should also be noted that courts do vary - some magistrates take the matter more seriously and levy a much higher fine that others.

I think it is helpful to be aware of the potential outcome, which can be very serious. However, it should also be impressed upon folk reading this that the severe outcome is never guaranteed, but will depend on how you handle it, what you say in your statement, and how quickly you deal with it. Importantly, don't bury your head in the sand and leave it till it gets to court.
 
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Mutant Lemming

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I have a friend who is a solicitor who specialises in criminal defence (very successfully). He says that if he was a magistrate, he would be a lot harsher than those he comes up against, partially because he knows that a lot of the pleas for mitigation are so much BS, and deserve to be ignored!

That comes from the top down though... when the rich and famous, let's say for instance manager's of top football clubs, can escape bans for speeding with (almost literal) BS backed up by expensive lawyers then one shouldn't be surprised when anyone else comes up with "mitigation" to excuse their actions.
 

amcluesent

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Just perusing some recent court results

I expect that those found guilty after doing nothing will have a criminal record as long as your arm, and have no more intention of paying these fines than observing their ASBO restriction or turning down the sound-system at 2am when the party is just starting.

TBH this is just another example of how decent people are casually criminalised by "box-tickers" who won't listen. Yes, I suppose I mean back in the day the working man knew his place when interacting with the middle-classes.
 
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TUC

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I'm happy to see it being enforced, even in the circumstances you mention. I know two regular "visually impaired" passengers who will tell platform staff to sit them in 1st class, but have standard class tickets, in the knowledge that they will not be shifted. I have warned both of them that if they do it again on my trains they will be shifted/charged.

To balance this out, my wife is blind and has found herself placed in first class by on-train staff on a number of occeasions when she in no way has asked to and often hasn't been advised that that is where she has been seated. If anything, she hasn't been sure whether to just go ahead and enjoy being in first class or worry about being turfed out by a later member of staff. It isn''t like she could easily move down the train herself when she became aware of it.
 

Flamingo

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To balance this out, my wife is blind and has found herself placed in first class by on-train staff on a number of occeasions when she in no way has asked to and often hasn't been advised that that is where she has been seated. If anything, she hasn't been sure whether to just go ahead and enjoy being in first class or worry about being turfed out by a later member of staff. It isn''t like she could easily move down the train herself when she became aware of it.

With these two, they do tell platform staff to put them in 1st, I know the staff and they have told me that the insist on being taken to 1st.

On occasions, I will put disabled passengers in 1st, as it means that there is a Customer Host to assist them during the journey and at their destination (depending on disability and if travelling alone or not).

I think it is the assumption of a privilege as a right that I and others find annoying.
 

34D

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Yes, I suppose I mean back in the day the working man knew his place when interacting with the middle-classes.

I'm sure a lot of us plebs agree totally with the missive your butler has just typed out on your behalf.
 

AntoniC

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I pay £1097 per year to travel between Southport & Liverpool Central. to get to work, and I wish Merseyrail would prosecute more fare dodgers !.

Why should I subsidize someone who cant be bothered to buy a ticket ?
 

BestWestern

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TBH this is just another example of how decent people are casually criminalised by "box-tickers" who won't listen. Yes, I suppose I mean back in the day the working man knew his place when interacting with the middle-classes.

Would you care to qualify or explain that rather bizarre line?! I read that as being your view that pesky "working class" railway staff have no business bothering "middle class" fare dodgers who don't wish to pay their fare, is that what you meant? A rather silly statement in my humble working class opinion :|
 

AlterEgo

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TBH this is just another example of how decent people are casually criminalised by "box-tickers" who won't listen. Yes, I suppose I mean back in the day the working man knew his place when interacting with the middle-classes.

Definitely one of the stranger posts I've read on here...

Unless this was supposed to be tongue in cheek?
 

Flamingo

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I expect that those found guilty after doing nothing will have a criminal record as long as your arm, and have no more intention of paying these fines than observing their ASBO restriction or turning down the sound-system at 2am when the party is just starting.

TBH this is just another example of how decent people are casually criminalised by "box-tickers" who won't listen. Yes, I suppose I mean back in the day the working man knew his place when interacting with the middle-classes.

How often have I heard somebody with a blatant ticket irregularity say "Why don't you go look for a fare dodger?"

Probably as often as most police officers hear "Why don't you catch a real criminal?"

This is indicative of an attitude that fare evasion is "acceptable", and not a real crime. People who would never dream of shoplifting will happily walk past a ticket office, and assuage their conscience with "If they ask me, of course I'll pay". These are the people who then refuse to pay when a full open single gets charged!
 

Stigy

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Based on my experience I can safely say that people should not overly concern themselves about this. The process will take about five months. You will NOT receive a criminal record nor a fine anywhere near some of the ridiculous numbers posted on this thread and on other discussions I have read on this forum.
You managed to settle out of court at the TOC's discretion. People DO receive large fines and criminal records for this this sort of offence.
 
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NLC1072

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...

To the scaremongers trawling this forum and posting antagonising messages you need to get a life.

The majority of people that will come to this forum for advice will be concerned about the threat of a criminal record and will be first time ‘offenders.’
.....

Based on my experience I can safely say that people should not overly concern themselves about this. The process will take about five months. You will NOT receive a criminal record nor a fine anywhere near some of the ridiculous numbers posted on this thread and on other discussions I have read on this forum.
Unfortunately you have posted on a forum where the differing of opinions is required in order for it to be a forum... be a bit boring if we all agreed! and those "ridiculous numbers" once again unfortunately can and are dished out to people who are repeat offenders/people who do not co-operate with the train operating company.
 

BestWestern

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Cordoba06 - As I'm sure you are now well aware, your apparent escape from prosecution was a fortunate result due to your assisted intervention, however it is not the case that this will happen for every offence every time. Indeed, if you were to appear again on the revenue department's paperwork the outcome will almost undoubtedly be very different. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that the railway is a soft touch, train operators can and will take it all the way and the Courts can impose some very substantial retribution. I'd stick to the rules from now on.
 

Old Timer

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Cordoba06 - As I'm sure you are now well aware, your apparent escape from prosecution was a fortunate result due to your assisted intervention, however it is not the case that this will happen for every offence every time. Indeed, if you were to appear again on the revenue department's paperwork the outcome will almost undoubtedly be very different. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that the railway is a soft touch, train operators can and will take it all the way and the Courts can impose some very substantial retribution. I'd stick to the rules from now on.
There are non so blind as those who will not see.

Still I am sure he will be back here at some point when he is caught again.

Does this site really assist people who are deliberately and knowingly breaking the rules ?
 

Cordoba06

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In addition to looking on this forum I also consulted a solicitor regarding this matter.

I was assured due to the circumstances of my case (having paid for a monthly ticket – worth £250 per month, entering a first class compartment in rush hour, pleading guilty at an early stage, being a first time 'offender', expressing remorse) that there was absolutely no chance of being given a criminal record but that I should expect to pay a large fine. And this is how my case played out.

A criminal record is what anyone with a career fears and is what I had been most concerned about. I am posting here to assure others that find themselves in a similar predicament that you should expect to pay a fine but that a criminal record is highly unlikely.

I dare say repeat offenders could face such sanctions as has been suggested by some posts but I don’t plan on finding out.

This is the last post I will make on this forum. Thanks to Dave for the great advice.
 

yorkie

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In addition to looking on this forum I also consulted a solicitor regarding this matter.

I was assured due to the circumstances of my case (having paid for a monthly ticket – worth £250 per month, entering a first class compartment in rush hour, pleading guilty at an early stage, being a first time 'offender', expressing remorse) that there was absolutely no chance of being given a criminal record but that I should expect to pay a large fine. And this is how my case played out.

You did not make it immediately clear what offence you were being prosecuted for, however once you did provide enough information, you were informed:
That is a prosecution under the railway byelaws, which is the lesser of the usual two offences. It does not result in a disclosable criminal record.

I am posting here to assure others that find themselves in a similar predicament that you should expect to pay a fine but that a criminal record is highly unlikely.
You were advised of that.
I dare say repeat offenders could face such sanctions as has been suggested by some posts but I don’t plan on finding out.

This is the last post I will make on this forum. Thanks to Dave for the great advice.
Yes, the advice that is available on this forum from posters such as Dave is superb, glad you appreciate it and that we were able to help :)
 
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