Intelligence-led stop with all your information and CCTV?

[BazingaTribe]

I think the difference in many people's minds is that stealing something physical is obviously depriving the previous owner of that item. Fare evading seems to not hurt anyone directly. "The trains are going to run anyway, why can't I ride" type thinking.

They are somewhat correct in that fare evading and stealing are not the same thing. I'm obviously not claiming fare evading is fine.

As they say it's a distinction without a difference -- however you slice it, it's still trying to obtain something for nothing or less than you should be paying.

 

[blimmo]

I disagree that it's a distinction without a difference. I agree that it's still wrong but taking something physical and fare evasion do have different levels of harm.

 

[z444z]

Honestly I would feel much worse about stealing from the railway, which operates on taxpayer money for the public good, than extremely large private companies operated purely for profit like most major supermarkets in the UK.

 

[blimmo]

Honestly I would feel much worse about stealing from the railway, which operates on taxpayer money for the public good, than extremely large private companies operated purely for profit like most major supermarkets in the UK.

I suspect many people are of the opinion that the private TOCs are large private companies operated purely for profit.

 

[KNN]

I don't think this forum is a good sample when it comes to a subject like this. There are a lot of people who would never consider stealing from a shop but don't have much problem with getting on a train as paying only when made to do so.

It might not be logical but it's what happens.

 

[z444z]

I suspect many people are of the opinion that the private TOCs are large private companies operated purely for profit.

There are certainly elements of that but I don’t think it’s quite as bad. That being said, absolutely remove the private interests from the railway.

 

[Horizon22]

There are certainly elements of that but I don’t think it’s quite as bad. That being said, absolutely remove the private interests from the railway.

Which is for the most part happening - or indeed already has and is "private" in name only or on a concession / management contract basis - with the exception of rolling stock companies (ROSCOs) which doesn't seem to be changing any time soon.

 

[andy33gmail]

I disagree that it's a distinction without a difference. I agree that it's still wrong but taking something physical and fare evasion do have different levels of harm.

There is some difference though

I’ve often felt I had to drive rather than use the train due to the extreme prices

From a social perspective, I’m causing pollution, congestion, and at least some potential danger to other road users (another object for people to collide with)

There may be a seat going anyway, and there would be no harm in me sitting in it

In other words, we have a market failure due to VED costing naff all, road tax being frozen for ages, and tail fares costing an absurd amount

If I stole something from the supermarket that would cause them to incur a cost. Unless I got it out the bin

 

[z444z]

From a social perspective, I’m causing pollution, congestion, and at least some potential danger to other road users (another object for people to collide with)

In other words, we have a market failure due to VED costing naff all, road tax being frozen for ages, and tail fares costing an absurd amount

Agreed. Driving is so heavily subsidised but it’s the status quo and so very few seem to realise the extent of it.

 

[JohnofWessex]

I suggest than in addition to the revenue loss there is an issue about the behaviour of many fare evaders and the impact their behaviour has on staff and passengers

 

[z444z]

I suggest than in addition to the revenue loss there is an issue about the behaviour of many fare evaders and the impact their behaviour has on staff and passengers

I would imagine this is a very small minority of fare evaders. Most blend right in. Additionally there are plenty of fare paying passengers that abuse staff, blare music etc.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I would imagine this is a very small minority of fare evaders. Most blend right in. Additionally there are plenty of fare paying passengers that abuse staff, blare music etc.

They tend to try and blend in until they get caught. Then some of them go a bit rogue

 

[RPI]

Honestly I would feel much worse about stealing from the railway, which operates on taxpayer money for the public good, than extremely large private companies operated purely for profit like most major supermarkets in the UK.

For the past five years at least, all fare revenue has gone straight to the treasury, TOC's are effectively on a management contract, so any fare evasion is effectively stealing from the taxpayer.

 

[BazingaTribe]

I would imagine this is a very small minority of fare evaders. Most blend right in. Additionally there are plenty of fare paying passengers that abuse staff, blare music etc.

I think you're starting to minimise the issue here, which is a bit disconcerting. I know we want to help people navigate the situation compassionately when they get caught, but trying to find justification in high prices, who the money goes to etc is undermining the message that fare evasion is just wrong and it can never really be right, however you classify it or whoever you're not-stealing-but-certainly-using-the-service-without-paying from.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2026 ==

For the past five years at least, all fare revenue has gone straight to the treasury, TOC's are effectively on a management contract, so any fare evasion is effectively stealing from the taxpayer.

Indeed. In addition there are many other private entities who we pay every day for services and if we don't we don't get the benefit of the services. I've also heard the argument against shoplifting against large corporations is that it's not the large corporations that get hurt by it, it's the individuals in the shop in question who get taken to task for the losses involved and, if it ends up in too much of a loss, the location might close, so they think more broadly about the issue. Additionally, the idea of personal benefit in stealing or evading a fare is far too great to make the argument anything other than a smokescreen -- even advanced by people who aren't necessarily in favour of big corporations.

The railway equivalent is that if a certain location has more than its fair share of fraud occurring, they conduct stings, put in ticket gates (Reading West is a much more comfortable place on dark winter evenings now that has been done) and so on. All the way up to, I guess, conducting the sort of sting that happened in the thread this one is referring to and eliminating the person who is causing the loss.

 

[John R]

and eliminating the person who is causing the loss.

I’ve heard of tough justice, but that might just be overstretching it a bit…

 

[Trainman40083]

I’ve heard of tough justice, but that might just be overstretching it a bit…

I thought that...Daleks on fare evasion. .

 

[BazingaTribe]

I thought that...Daleks on fare evasion. .

Haha yeah. Sorry, wrong word.

 

[Hadders]

I suggest it's the lack of on train ticket checks that makes for fare evasions.

You can't check every ticket on every train. A good revenue protection strategy will include lots of different elements, including:

- Making it easy to buy tickets
- Have a decent fares structure - the old British Rail structure was excellent in this respect
- Install ticket barriers at large stations and for journeys where carrying out onboard checks can be difficult
- Carry out onboard checks, particularly on long-distance routes where there is typically a longer time between station calls
- Carry out high profile revenue blocks
- Have a Penalty Fares policy
- Make use of investigation in the 'back office'
- Prosecute those who do not co-operate with train company investigations

And that train fares in the UK are extortionate!

Some, but by no means all, fares are extortionate.

Don't always think fares abroad are always cheaper because they're not. I recently visited Bordeaux and arranged travel more than three months ahead. Eurostar/TGV was £200+ one-way (which was led by the TGV price from Paris). I ended up flying.

That being said, absolutely remove the private interests from the railway.

I disagree. There will always need to be, and always has been some sort of private involvement. The state is not always great at operating large organisations.

I’ve often felt I had to drive rather than use the train due to the extreme prices

I think it's horses for courses. The train won't always be the best value or most appropriate way to travel. For example, I often travel to the north-east:

If we're going to the weekend it's good to have the car with us so we can visit the countryside - there's sp much to explore. Plus we can just dump everything in the boot of the car.
If I'm going for a work meeting then the train wins for going there and back in the day.
I've never tajen a flight to the north-east but I have taken a flight to Scotland on a few occasions, normally because the times have worked out better. I've also taken the train to Scotland.

TOC's are effectively on a management contract, so any fare evasion is effectively stealing from the taxpayer.

Many TOCs have targets set by the DfT and can earn a larger performance fee if they exceed these targets. Ticketless travel is often one of the targets.

 

[bramling]

For the past five years at least, all fare revenue has gone straight to the treasury, TOC's are effectively on a management contract, so any fare evasion is effectively stealing from the taxpayer.

Given how many people seem to feel about how government (both local and national) spend their tax at the moment, I suspect quite a few people wouldn’t feel too bothered about this.

 

[Sonic1234]

Ticketless travel is often one of the targets.

Then don't do any checks. Ticketless travel is now zero (on paper).

For the past five years at least, all fare revenue has gone straight to the treasury, TOC's are effectively on a management contract, so any fare evasion is effectively stealing from the taxpayer.

And if you find someone on the street that knows that, they are a member of this forum. Most see trains as a private extortion racket enriching fat cats and foreign operators. Same for any arguments about subsidy, most couldn't imagine overcrowded expensive trains don't pay their way.

 

[Wolfie]

I think the Court backlog, currently runs until 2029 at the moment.

Exactly and the Civil Procedure Rules, which govern civil courts in England and Wales, state in Section 1.4(e) "ordering or encouraging the parties to use, and facilitating the use of, alternative dispute resolution".

The system actively encourages keeping issues out of Court. Of course, the threat of potential criminal proceedings if no settlement is agreed rather serves to concentrate minds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2026 ==

The extract you quote from Trainline's Privacy Policy says nothing about handing all your personal information over a train company so that they can investigate actual or possible crimes. It doesn't say they will happily tell the the train companies about what they think are suspicious patterns of ticket purchasing.

We have seen passengers subjected to intense pressure by certain TOCs to prove that their ticket buying is innocent of any fraudulent intent. All from scrutiny of online ticket buying and in spite of GDPR apparently protecting them.

GDPR specifically allows data to be supplied for criminal investigations. Fraud is a crime.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2026 ==

There is some difference though

I’ve often felt I had to drive rather than use the train due to the extreme prices

From a social perspective, I’m causing pollution, congestion, and at least some potential danger to other road users (another object for people to collide with)

There may be a seat going anyway, and there would be no harm in me sitting in it

In other words, we have a market failure due to VED costing naff all, road tax being frozen for ages, and tail fares costing an absurd amount

If I stole something from the supermarket that would cause them to incur a cost. Unless I got it out the bin

Arguably even you taking something out of a bin incurs a cost for the supermarket if the consequence is that you then don't make a purchase.

 

[Hadders]

Then don't do any checks. Ticketless travel is now zero (on paper).

The DfT measure the level of ticketless travel by arranging independent surveys.

 

[blimmo]

Arguably even you taking something out of a bin incurs a cost for the supermarket if the consequence is that you then don't make a purchase.

But it isn't stealing. If it was then so would home cooking since that "incurs a cost" to restaurants.

 

[Wolfie]

But it isn't stealing. If it was then so would home cooking since that "incurs a cost" to restaurants.

Not true.

The contents of a private bin remain the property of the householder or business until the waste collection authority or company collects them, at which point ownership usually transfers to the collector.

The legal definition of theft in England and Wales is "dishonestly appropriating property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". Hence, taking an item from a private bin without permission is considered stealing (theft), even if the owner intended to dispose of it.

Indeed there have been prosecutions for people removing items from council rubbish collection facilities without permission.

 

[sheff1]

Honestly I would feel much worse about stealing from the railway, which operates on taxpayer money for the public good, than extremely large private companies operated purely for profit like most major supermarkets in the UK.

DfT actions make it clear that the public good is not their focus for the railway.

 

[RPI]

Given how many people seem to feel about how government (both local and national) spend their tax at the moment, I suspect quite a few people wouldn’t feel too bothered about this.

Now that I can't dispute

 

[jumble]

What in the dystopian nightmare am I hearing in the UK. This train fine system is really convoluted.

Like I moved to Denmark and here, you just get a penalty fare of 750 DKK at DSB and 1100 DKK at GoCollective and on with your day.

What is going on in the UK?

Right - I agree completely. Especially since all of this "intelligence" is tracking ticket purchases made from online retailers. It's a frequent debate whether these retailers should really be disclosing personal information to the train operators. This case is particularly creepy - the plain clothed investigators walk up to the person in question and are already addressing him by his first name. It's not made completely clear upon registration that the retailers will make no effort whatsoever to protect your personal information if requested by the train operators, I'm sure some might think differently regarding their ticket purchases if they knew this.

'Fare Dodgers: At War with the Law' on Youtube might interest you; you get to see a behind the scenes perspective on how they operate. But unfortunately the individual in question has created a paper trail of their fare evasion, making it incredibly easy for the operator to intercept them. This isn't the standard fare evasion case as mentioned upthread and perhaps the amount the railway has lost warrants this type of response.

I expect that the types of character who are involved in organised crime which has come to the Polices attention and then their front doors come down early one morning also think it is creepy when they realise that they had no idea that the Police have been covertly tracking their every movement and phone call for many months

 

[Nottingham59]

Erm, is this thread getting a teeny weeny bit off topic?

 

[MikeWh]

Erm, is this thread getting a teeny weeny bit off topic?

Yes, it was. Posts moved to: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/train-vs-plane.297861/