Iarnród Éireann service frequencies

[berneyarms]

Whilst slightly OT, it looks like it might be good news for this https://waterford-news.ie/2023/02/20/waterford-wexford-rail-line/. Having to drive from London to Limerick (via the Pembroke-Rosslare ferry) a couple of years ago, I found it inexplicable to learn that this route had been abandoned in 2010. Apparently at the time it was down to 1 train a day in each direction which is hardly going to encourage the public. But it looks like it could be a strategically important route if it could attract investment. Obviously reinstatement would require a fair bit of work including installation of a few passing loops. It would make sense to me to run 2tph from Limerick to Rosslare to provide a useful east coast-west coast route, perhaps throwing in a new interchange platform/remodelling of Limerick Junction?

Whether that line will reopen to passenger services isn’t clear, it is being discussed more so in terms of freight.

But I would expect that a recommendation of through Galway to Waterford services at maybe every two hours would be an outcome of the Strategic Rail Review.

They would have to reinstate Carrick-on-Suir loop and add additional loops along the route to facilitate the additional frequency.

A loop at Sixmilebridge between Limerick and Ennis is essential - that 40 minute section prevents any real service expansion.

 

[RT4038]

It would make sense to me to run 2tph from Limerick to Rosslare to provide a useful east coast-west coast route, perhaps throwing in a new interchange platform/remodelling of Limerick Junction?

Considering the most main line in the country, linking the two main cities (Dublin-Cork) copes with one train per hour, and I doubt there has ever been more than 2 or 3 trains per day between Rosslare and Limerick, 2tph would seem a little overkill? Of course the main line west of Rosslare would have been via Waterford-Lismore-Mallow (-Cork) closed in 1967 and I doubt that was any more frequent.....

 

[fishwomp]

Unfortunately, the huge elephant in the room there is the maintenance and staffing costs of the Barrow Bridge.

I'm not sure what the current status is - a collision by a ship last year ( https://waterford-news.ie/2022/11/29/barrow-bridge-repair-will-run-into-millions/ ) and covered by the ship's insurer, and Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrow_Bridge ) aren't too clear..

In 2021, reports in local media suggested the bridge would be permanently opened to shipping.[6] This proposal was later reversed. After a collision with a ship in February 2022, Irish Rail announced plans to pin the bridge open in December 2022 to perform repair works.[7]

.. so it sounds like after the work to repair is completed, the bridge will be not permanently open to river traffic, but instead (again Wikipedia)

This bridge is one of six rail bridges of 45 bridges on the Barrow.[3] It spans the river just upstream from its confluence with another of the three sisters the River Suir. Close to Great Island Power Station near Cheekpoint. It is the last bridge on the river Barrow and opens approximately twice daily to permit shipping and yachts to pass upstream to New Ross.[citation needed]

Anyone know its current status?

 

[berneyarms]

Considering the most main line in the country, linking the two main cities (Dublin-Cork) copes with one train per hour, and I doubt there has ever been more than 2 or 3 trains per day between Rosslare and Limerick, 2tph would seem a little overkill? Of course the main line west of Rosslare would have been via Waterford-Lismore-Mallow (-Cork) closed in 1967 and I doubt that was any more frequent.....

It certainly won’t be 2tph.
Far more likely something like every two hours as I say between Galway and Waterford.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Midleton to Youghal is being converted to a 'greenway' (walking / cycling route) as we speak - the first section is due to open later this year.

One of the problems of the Waterford to Rosslare line is the lack of local traffic - it was really only a boat train route passing through some very unpromising territory. The Bus Éireann service Rosslare to Cork goes via Wexford and New Ross to Waterford serving the main centres of population in the area. One wonders if the west curve at Rosslare Strand (closed 1912!) was reinstated a Waterford to Wexford service might be of more use?

 

[Austriantrain]

Considering the most main line in the country, linking the two main cities (Dublin-Cork) copes with one train per hour, and I doubt there has ever been more than 2 or 3 trains per day between Rosslare and Limerick, 2tph would seem a little overkill? Of course the main line west of Rosslare would have been via Waterford-Lismore-Mallow (-Cork) closed in 1967 and I doubt that was any more frequent.....

If Ireland is serious about rail transport, then having three to four trains a day won’t cut it. A two-hourly service is the minimum. Anything less and it’s better not to run it at all, let alone revive a mothballed line - and continue to opt for coach transport.

 

[THC]

If Ireland is serious about rail transport, then having three to four trains a day won’t cut it. A two-hourly service is the minimum. Anything less and it’s better not to run it at all, let alone revive a closed line - and continue to opt for coach transport.

We'll soon find out how serious, as the all-Ireland Strategic Rail Review will finally be published later this month.

THC

 

[Thebaz]

Unfortunately, the huge elephant in the room there is the maintenance and staffing costs of the Barrow Bridge.

Well, yes there is that. At least it has carried rail traffic in the not-too-distant past, unlike Meldon for example!

On all the other replies:
Yes, sorry I also meant 1tp2h not 2tph - that would never stack up, doh!. I agree Waterford-Wexford link might be better for local traffic though that requires reinstatement of the Killinick curve. Maybe you alternate with one going to Rosslare and one going to Wexford, or to save on building the curve the train reverses at the town station in Rosslare maybe? Also agree a longer distance service originating in Galway could have potential, you'd have to have better units operating it though.

I do think that Limerick Junction should be remodelled as the current arrangement is bonkers.

 

[Gloster]

I feel that, even with all the reviews and promotion of public transport, eastwards from Waterford is going to be right at the end of the queue. The population is spread out and you are going to have to do a lot to get them to go to a station and then on to Waterford. There may be some traffic between Waterford and Wexford, but the diversion via the N25 is much less of a chore for road users. The same may apply to Rosslare, but I would have thought that it looks towards Wexford and the harbour. (And does Rosslare have a high proportion of second homes?)

Even when the line was open it always felt (to me) that it was only kept open by the beet terminal at Wellington Bridge and the connections to and from the night Fishguard boats. Local traffic into Waterford might affect the exact timings of the trains, but would not have, on its own, justified their existence.

 

[D6130]

Even when the line was open it always felt (to me) that it was only kept open by the beet terminal at Wellington Bridge and the connections to and from the night Fishguard boats. Local traffic into Waterford might affect the exact timings of the trains, but would not have, on its own, justified their existence.

The morning train from Rosslare and the evening one back from Waterford were also used by students resident in South Wexford attending the Regional Technical College in Waterford. Presumably those from Rosslare now travel by bus via Wexford and New Ross, but it's not so simple for those living in the smaller communities such as Bridgetown, Wellington Briidge and Campile.

 

[Flying Snail]

The morning train from Rosslare and the evening one back from Waterford were also used by students resident in South Wexford attending the Regional Technical College in Waterford. Presumably those from Rosslare now travel by bus via Wexford and New Ross, but it's not so simple for those living in the smaller communities such as Bridgetown, Wellington Briidge and Campile.

Replacement bus route 370 was provided at the close of the line serving the south Wexford areas that the line ran through.

https://www.buseireann.ie/timetable/3062.pdf

 

[berneyarms]

Replacement bus route 370 was provided at the close of the line serving the south Wexford areas that the line ran through.

https://www.buseireann.ie/timetable/3062.pdf

And the 370 bus brings people directly to the Colleges and the Hospital in Waterford.

 

[D6130]

Replacement bus route 370 was provided at the close of the line serving the south Wexford areas that the line ran through.

https://www.buseireann.ie/timetable/3062.pdf

....so that's almost twice the journey time from Rosslare Harbour to Waterford and vice-versa as the train used to take - even in the railway's final death throws with a blanket 40 mph speed restriction - but you have to take into account the long detour via New Ross, There is a passenger and car ferry across the Barrow estuary from Ballyhack to Dunmore East....but I don't think it can carry buses or heavy goods vehicles.

 

[Gloster]

....so that's almost twice the journey time from Rosslare Harbour to Waterford and vice-versa as the train used to take - even in the railway's final death throws with a blanket 40 mph speed restriction - but you have to take into account the long detour via New Ross, There is a passenger and car ferry across the Barrow estuary from Ballyhack to Dunmore East....but I don't think it can carry buses or heavy goods vehicles.

There is also a the Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy Bridge (*) on the N25 south of New Ross. Sending a bus to the hospital and college, at least in term time, this way would probably save significant time, but if there aren’t enough passengers to justify this, then there probably wouldn‘t be enough to justify a train service.

* - The name is controversial, though it is not clear why. However, it seems to have created plenty of political hot air.

Irrelevant point. I always misheard the line in the UKSubs Party in Paris when they sant Party in Paris Palais as Party in Ballycullane.

 

[D6130]

Rise Fitzgerald Kennedy Bridge

Pedant/typo alert: Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy Bridge....named after the mother of the US president, whose great-grandfather emigrated from a nearby village.

 

[JonathanH]

If Ireland is serious about rail transport, then having three to four trains a day won’t cut it. A two-hourly service is the minimum. Anything less and it’s better not to run it at all, let alone revive a mothballed line - and continue to opt for coach transport.

Is there anything particularly wrong with continuing to opt for coach transport where this can provide an efficient service at a reasonable cost?

Rail transport is best when there is a suitable volume of passengers to be moved. Is that demand going to emerge?

 

[berneyarms]

....so that's almost twice the journey time from Rosslare Harbour to Waterford and vice-versa as the train used to take - even in the railway's final death throws with a blanket 40 mph speed restriction - but you have to take into account the long detour via New Ross, There is a passenger and car ferry across the Barrow estuary from Ballyhack to Dunmore East....but I don't think it can carry buses or heavy goods vehicles.

First of all virtually no one is likely to be travelling from Rosslare Harbour to Waterford on that bus - they’re travelling from the places en route and secondly the bus brings them directly to the Hospital and the colleges.

The train left people on the wrong side of the river in Waterford, required people to walk across the river to the bus station and get another bus.

I’m all for encouraging rail, but that line in my view really doesn’t have the numbers to justify passenger services.

 

[Gloster]

Pedant/typo alert: Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy Bridge....named after the mother of the US president, whose great-grandfather emigrated from a nearby village.

Corrected. (It was eleven o’clock at night.)

 

[Austriantrain]

Is there anything particularly wrong with continuing to opt for coach transport where this can provide an efficient service at a reasonable cost?

Rail transport is best when there is a suitable volume of passengers to be moved. Is that demand going to emerge?

As I wrote in the post you replied to: a coach might very well be the best option.

I am certainly not going to tell the Irish what to do, but am convinced that reopening a mothballed line for anything less than a two-hourly service would certainly be very poor value for money.

 

[fishwomp]

The train left people on the wrong side of the river in Waterford, required people to walk across the river to the bus station and get another bus.

Same is true for the current service from Dublin though.

I’m all for encouraging rail, but that line in my view really doesn’t have the numbers to justify passenger services.

Apt user name for this particular topic!

That's fairly honest - unfortunately, I'd love to see rail return but passenger alone wouldn't be enough. Sparse is the word.

Wexford town (if the top side of triangle was reopened) is only 21,000 population,
Rosslare Harbour and surrounding villages 2,000 (source: https://www.citypopulation.de/en/ireland/towns/WX__wexford/ census data).

Wexford is #1 by population in the county, Rosslare Harbour #6 - and places #2,3,4,5 are not near the route.

At best, this could reopen for freight.. but Waterford may be a better destination for that as it already does timber and containers - and the ro-ros in Rosslare are not the best sources of rail freight (nothing comes out of Holyhead, Fishguard or Pembroke Dock by rail now..). Also, I'm not aware of any sources of freight between Dublin and Rosslare that would benefit from routing via Rosslare/Wexford for export (timber from Wicklow, cake and rugs from Avoca?)

 

[islandmonkey]

What appetite for electrification is there in Ireland?

 

[berneyarms]

Same is true for the current service from Dublin though.

Apt user name for this particular topic!

That's fairly honest - unfortunately, I'd love to see rail return but passenger alone wouldn't be enough. Sparse is the word.

Wexford town (if the top side of triangle was reopened) is only 21,000 population,
Rosslare Harbour and surrounding villages 2,000 (source: https://www.citypopulation.de/en/ireland/towns/WX__wexford/ census data).

Wexford is #1 by population in the county, Rosslare Harbour #6 - and places #2,3,4,5 are not near the route.

At best, this could reopen for freight.. but Waterford may be a better destination for that as it already does timber and containers - and the ro-ros in Rosslare are not the best sources of rail freight (nothing comes out of Holyhead, Fishguard or Pembroke Dock by rail now..). Also, I'm not aware of any sources of freight between Dublin and Rosslare that would benefit from routing via Rosslare/Wexford for export (timber from Wicklow, cake and rugs from Avoca?)

People aren’t commuting into Waterford from the Dublin trains though. That’s the difference with the old train service.

Waterford station is relocating in any case further east with a new pedestrian bridge over the river providing direct access to the bus station and the city centre.

 

[RailWonderer]

Irish railways went through a rationalisation period in the 1950s and 1960s, which was their version of the Beeching cuts, although was far less controversial given that their population was still declining until 1961. I think electrification is less realistic in Ireland, unlike the UK there are a few core routes and only 1tp2h in many parts at most. I think the line to Cork is the only viable line for electrification, but emissions wise Ireland is so far down the global tables it's a non-issue really.

 

[hexagon789]

Irish railways went through a rationalisation period in the 1950s and 1960s, which was their version of the Beeching cuts, although was far less controversial given that their population was still declining until 1961. I think electrification is less realistic in Ireland, unlike the UK there are a few core routes and only 1tp2h in many parts at most. I think the line to Cork is the only viable line for electrification, but emissions wise Ireland is so far down the global tables it's a non-issue really.

While there were massive numbers of stations closures in (IIRC) 1963 or 64, a surprising number of smaller stations survived into the mid-70s, as did some smaller lines - mostly for freight, but thr Loughrea branch (often called Ireland's last rural branch line) survived until 1975.

 

[zwk500]

What appetite for electrification is there in Ireland?

Tepid, I think, is the best description. See: https://www.modernrailways.com/article/electrification-irelands-10-year-rail-plans

A bit of DART 1.5KV extension, 'consideration' of 25KV AC Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork, but also they're buying battery units with potential later conversion, rather than any firm commitment to mainline electrification (which would be complicated by the 1.5KV DC sections).

 

[johnnydoe]

What appetite for electrification is there in Ireland?

The proposed timeline internally is rumoured to be 2040 for Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork/Limerick. A new draft report is due to be published at the end of the month.

TEN-T is likely to mean that 70% of the entire InterCity passenger network will have to meet average speeds of 160/km/h. I'd say several things are likely to happen to improve things. Some of those are upgrading InterCity track infrastructure to double, three and four track, line-speed increases and electrification. TEN-T is also likely to drive rail freight.

Our biggest enemy is one-off rural housing (AKA subsidised stupidity).

 

[fishwomp]

It's out: https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/df8dd-putting-communities-on-track-for-a-new-age-of-rail/#

 

[islandmonkey]

It's out: https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/df8dd-putting-communities-on-track-for-a-new-age-of-rail/#

I like how they say that the railway will be decarbonised and that is the main point. I know they speak of electrification further below but it comes across as if they are scared of the 'E' word.