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Hulley's of Baslow (Defunct)

Dwarfer1979

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In the case of the 257 it was a clone of the route Hulleys had commercially registered.
In the case of the 257 when Hulleys were falling over DCC will have had discussions with operators around their intentions. I know multiple operators had already been clear with DCC what routes they saw as commercially viable and what routes weren't likely to be covered. Plus, of course, there was nothing to stop an operator expressing the intention, during the tendering process, to operate it commercially if they wished to and none of these tenders would have been activated if Hulleys did not stop running - it was about identifying a replacement in case the worst happened (as it did). The same thing happened when YourBus went bust, the tenders were issued and "awarded" some time (I think it was a couple of months between the first suggestions of issues and the final nail) before they stopped operating ready to be activated if the operator stopped running.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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The 55 shares very little of the route with anything Stagecoach runs, even the Comet has little in common. It's easy to justify as nothing else serves Wingerworth, Pilsley, Hardstoft or Stonebroom. Even parts of Birdholme it's the only service. In the case of the X1, as there isn't much between Macclesfield and Leek it's hard not to have significant overlap.
Absolutely, which is why I said it was an extreme example - it clearly duplicates other services but only in part; for much of it, it is serving it's own market and needs. That's the shades of grey that we were referring to. With the X1, the level of duplication was much clearer so I think we're in violent agreement. :lol:

I mentioned the Chelmsford example where the council is continuing to pay for a service that is exactly the same as the TMS commercial service. What their reasoning is, I don't know, but it isn't the only example where a council hasn't necessarily withdrawn a tender because of a commercial offering.
Within Sheffield there is a decent number of houses it covers. Beyond? It's the only service to Bamford - whether they need an hourly service depends on your views on serving rural communities. As with much of what we are discussing here, on a nice day better than hourly would not go amiss. Bakewell to Hathersage? I'm not sure of the benefits of it being hourly. Hathersage has the 272, Grindleford gets the 65, as does Eyam. Baslow to Bakewell is well covered. Personally, I'd have run every other service via Bradwell (as per some school runs) and coordinated with the 173 and 272 to give a better service for that end of the Hope Valley.
I think that's the difference between what "should" happen and the reality of the situation. It was a tendered service (275) and not able to wash its face financially. Therefore, it's unlikely that an hourly headway would improve the sustainability, even if hourly rural services are deemed laudable or even essential.
I remember being shocked when I went back to GM recently how much rail fares had increased since I lived there. Maybe a cheaper bus would appeal more? Unfortunately, as above I suspect it would appeal more to those with plenty of time on their hands who travel for nothing. Buses, of course, should be able to compete with railways end-to-end as stations aren't always that conveniently placed.
Indeed - where buses and trains run parallel, it is usually the poor location of stations that is the main differentiator. However, most people tend to gravitate to the train and Glossop station is central as is Piccadilly.
None of us fully understood the longer term implications of Covid in terms of price rises and issues around getting and keeping staff. Of course, had it carried on much longer there would have been the fuel price shock from the invasion of Ukraine. However, you are right to infer they were being unduly optimistic there.
I think the whole idea was overly optimistic and that was probably the issue with lots of Hulley's plans. The timings were too keen and it was a huge financial commitment on a service through hitherto unserved markets.

As you say, there were other factors that they might have reasonably underestimated such as the availability of drivers - a mix of losing foreign drivers during Covid, some retiring early as they adjusted to not working/built up funds, and a drop in the inward supply of new drivers as training was paused.
 

Goldfish62

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I mentioned the Chelmsford example where the council is continuing to pay for a service that is exactly the same as the TMS commercial service. What their reasoning is, I don't know, but it isn't the only example where a council hasn't necessarily withdrawn a tender because of a commercial offering.
As I understand it TMS made it known to the council that they had every intention to bid for the contract. They somehow managed not to submit a bid by the deadline and the council quite rightly refused to accept any late submission. Only once the council had awarded the council did TMS announce their intention to operate the service commercially.

Not surprising that the council decided to proceed in the face of an operator that appears to be behaving like a spoiled brat.
 

Tetchytyke

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As you say, there were other factors that they might have reasonably underestimated such as the availability of drivers - a mix of losing foreign drivers during Covid, some retiring early as they adjusted to not working/built up funds, and a drop in the inward supply of new drivers as training was paused.
Most operators had issues with driver numbers during and after Covid. Wages in the HGV industry went through the roof and that turned a lot of bus drivers' heads. Especially as, in the years before Covid, bus companies hadn't exactly treated their drivers very well.

The fact their drivers suddenly had options caught a lot of bus companies on the back foot.
 

Teapot42

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In the case of the 257 when Hulleys were falling over DCC will have had discussions with operators around their intentions. I know multiple operators had already been clear with DCC what routes they saw as commercially viable and what routes weren't likely to be covered.
I'm not so sure of that reasoning though. I think Hulleys had 5 commercial services, the 55, 84, 170, 257 and 272. Although by that time I think the 84 and 170 had been mainly merged as a final attempt to salvage something!

The 272 was obviously going to be taken on commercially. The 170 was likely to be, although not necessarily the bits from the 84 that had been merged in. Therefore, why only tender the 257 and not the 55 or 84? If they knew High Peak and Stagecoach were both intending to register the 170 then it would have been obvious only one would end up running it, so having cover for the 84 would make sense. I can't see anyone registering the 55, and even tendered it misses out one village.

It's also odd that the 257 was tendered to a higher level than Hulleys ran commercially, while the 172 (and 171) was tendered at the reduced level Hulleys had negotiated with the council. Surely upping that provision should have come before tendering a commercial service to a higher frequency?

It would be interesting to do a FOI to find out what happened in the tendering process, as it appeared rather botched from the outside, but without knowing the context it's hard to be sure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The fact their drivers suddenly had options caught a lot of bus companies on the back foot.
Not just bus companies. A few people I worked with previously found that Amazon pays better for delivery drivers than many traditional lower skilled jobs. The rise in online shopping must have been a big factor in a few industries being short of staff.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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As I understand it TMS made it known to the council that they had every intention to bid for the contract. They somehow managed not to submit a bid by the deadline and the council quite rightly refused to accept any late submission. Only once the council had awarded the council did TMS announce their intention to operate the service commercially.

Not surprising that the council decided to proceed in the face of an operator that appears to be behaving like a spoiled brat.
Your first para is my understanding.

In the case of Chelmsford, it might be because of a break clause issue, or the commercial model of parking/bus travel. I minded to think that as it may also be that they don't consider it to be commercial (and this is where your second point comes in) that they don't trust TMS not to latterly amend their operation to a lower spec even if Essex pull the First contract.

I think my point more generally (and not wishing to upset the mods and getting back to Derbyshire/Staffordshire/Hulleys) is that it shows that a council is permitted to support a service where a commercial alternative exists where circumstances allow, rather than a black and white rule. That might be on the grounds of frequency, scope, other journey options/considerations. In certain instances, they will pull a tender and in others, they won't.
 
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mayneway

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I'm dubious that even with better execution and operational compliance, there was really a sustainable market for it. And as we know, the road to hell is paved with people saying "if only they'd put a bus on, I'd use it"
Well it’s ironic that councillors in Glossop and Hollingworth are pushing TFGM for better bus links between Glossop and Manchester so Hulleys were onto something. Had they not over complicated things and dealt with awol drivers doing their own thing it could have worked.
 

markymark2000

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It is a shame still, the X57 was a good principal route but hulleys got greedy, the X1 ran for 2 days leaving egg on the face of Staffordshire & Cheshire East councils with even D&G condemning them (Council's & Hulleys) with D&G and Aimees scrambling to get their routes back in to cover the gaps.
I agree. I think it's easy for people to bash the X57 but it did have potential and there were people wanting to use the route. What let Huleys down was the constant tinkering with it and I agree getting greedy with the X1. Hulleys tried to do too much with it too quickly and never gave it time for even them to judge the demand and potential market. Had they set it up slightly better in the first place (Hyde should have been there from day 1 due to onward connections, linking Glossop to Hyde and possibly picking up some Hyde-Manchester demand too off the 201), and let it settle in better rather than what felt like nearly weekly if not daily timetable changes, the outcomes would have likely been quite different.

I also remember buses working empty to Manchester Airport on Sundays for the X57 - how can so much dead mileage possibly be viable?
The second that the Airport was a mistake. Least the tinkering between Sheffield and Manchester City Centre is one thing. But when they already hadn't perfected the core offering, expanding it so far out to a new market was never going to work. That's before you consider that it was adding in cross Manchester journeys (which is a punctuality nightmare) and extending the overall route length, on a service that is already likely have reliability issues, by an extra 40 odd minutes each way.
 

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