HSTs to Minehead

[DelW]

Last week I posted in another forum that I'd seen a GWR 4+2 HST set operating on the West Somerset:

Bishops Lydeard - Frome/Westbury service?

Thinking recently about how the spine of Somerset could be better served, the titled service came to mind as a possibility. My idea is the West Somerset railway from Taunton-Bishops Lydeard would be upgraded to NR standard, and the latter station along with a new station at Norton Fitzwarren...

www.railforums.co.uk

I've now been told that on Wednesdays in August, the summer-holiday extra DMU service (yellow timetable) will be worked by the HST set instead on the usual Park Royal 3-car set. The HST was working this morning's down service, and will be visible on the Railcam webcams working this afternoon's return. Numbers are hard to spot on the cameras but I think are 43154 and 43155.

Nominal timings are 11:00 from Bishop's Lydeard and 15:25 from Minehead.

Intermediate departure times are
Williton 11:34 & 16:17
Watchet 11:43 & 16:07
Blue Anchor 12:00 & 15:48

(Note to mods: I was unsure whether to post this under Traction & Rolling Stock or Railtours & Preservation, but the service isn't a railtour and AFAIK the set isn't preserved; I presume it's one that has been in storage at Norton Fitzwarren. Please move if preferred.)

 

[PastorDave]

Running about 15 minutes late at Blue Anchor.

 

[Amlag]

Of concern is that again today 28/8/24 we have cancellations and short forms rife on GWR local services incl on Falmouth and Exmouth/Paignton locals and an IET vice DMU on 0710 BTM/ Glos/ Frome etc diagram meanwhile a GW HST ( not allowed to be made available for normal services pending withdrawal /likely export for a second useful life) has been ‘ holidaying’ on WSR for working (instead of WSR‘s own resources) the 1100 Bishops Lydiard to Minehead and 1525 Return Diagram on Wednesdays in August.

I hope the new Govt’s Transport Minister asks the DfT to justify this misuse of a GW HST set.

 

[The exile]

Of concern is that again today 28/8/24 we have cancellations and short forms rife on GWR local services incl on Falmouth and Exmouth/Paignton locals and an IET vice DMU on 0710 BTM/ Glos/ Frome etc diagram meanwhile a GW HST ( not allowed to be made available for normal services pending withdrawal /likely export for a second useful life) has been ‘ holidaying’ on WSR for working (instead of WSR‘s own resources) the 1100 Bishops Lydiard to Minehead and 1525 Return Diagram on Wednesdays in August.

I hope the new Govt’s Transport Minister asks the DfT to justify this misuse of a GW HST set.

Is it “holidaying” or stood down and stored as the DfT won’t pay for it?

 

[PastorDave]

I gave in and ride this last HST back from Minehead today on the West Somerset railway.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I hope the new Govt’s Transport Minister asks the DfT to justify this misuse of a GW HST set.

It is the DfT who asked for the HSTs to be stood down and stored…

 

[fgwrich]

I hope the new Govt’s Transport Minister asks the DfT to justify this misuse of a GW HST set.

I think you’ll find that GW can do whatever it wants to with this HST set. The DfT asked them to stand down a number of sets, and this set is owned by First Group themselves. So, these WSR runs are both keeping it in Warm Storage while bringing in some income for them. Mainline issues are separate to this. If the DfT asks First to increase the number of sets back out on the mainline, then at least this one will be tested and ready.

It is the DfT who asked for the HSTs to be stood down and stored…

Indeed.

 

[Towers]

You wonder whether the new Transport Minister has been fully appraised of some of the nonsense decisions made by her predocessor - like fully serviceable mainline rolling stock stood down and holidaying on a heritage line while the TOC suffers an ongoing stock shortage - if not then perhaps some common sense might still prevail at a government level!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

You wonder whether the new Transport Minister has been fully appraised of some of the nonsense decisions made by her predocessor - like fully serviceable mainline rolling stock stood down and holidaying on a heritage line while the TOC suffers an ongoing stock shortage - if not then perhaps some common sense might still prevail at a government level!

As it was done to save money and the new lot are on about a black hole I don’t think they especially wish to flash the cash….

 

[Towers]

As it was done to save money and the new lot are on about a black hole I don’t think they especially wish to flash the cash….

But they may see the sense in using available rolling stock rather than cancelling services daily?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But they may see the sense in using available rolling stock rather than cancelling services daily?

It isn’t available, it’s off lease in warm store.

That is why they are now negotiating for the 175s.

 

[Towers]

It isn’t available, it’s off lease in warm store.

That is why they are now negotiating for the 175s.

It could of course be swiftly available if the DfT simply authorised its use…

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It could of course be swiftly available if the DfT simply authorised its use…

Simply authorised its use?
That’s not down to the DfT but to the treasury to approve the expenditure, that is unlikely as the treasury has this supposed financial black hole!

 

[43096]

It isn’t available, it’s off lease in warm store.

Is it off lease, though? All the GWR HST fleet (bar the franchise assets) is on lease until 22 June 2025.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is it off lease, though? All the GWR HST fleet (bar the franchise assets) is on lease until 22 June 2025.

I understood some had been stood down early due to needing works etc. Not entirely sure of the details.

 

[DelW]

Is it off lease, though? All the GWR HST fleet (bar the franchise assets) is on lease until 22 June 2025.

Post 7 above states that the set that has been in use on the WSR is owned by First Group, so (presumably) no lease is involved.

I'd have thought the leased ones would have been stood down before the in-house ones, but I guess it depends on the Ts and Cs of the leasing contract.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Post 7 above states that the set that has been in use on the WSR is owned by First Group, so (presumably) no lease is involved.

I'd have thought the leased ones would have been stood down before the in-house ones, but I guess it depends on the Ts and Cs of the leasing contract.

The ones owned by First Rail Holdings are leased in the same way as trains are leased from any other ROSCO.

 

[43096]

Post 7 above states that the set that has been in use on the WSR is owned by First Group, so (presumably) no lease is involved.

There is a lease from FirstGroup (actually First Rail Holdings) to the operating company, GWR.

This is clear from the GWR National Rail contract (https://assets.publishing.service.g...4c70ed/first-greater-western-ltd-2022-nrc.pdf), extract below.


Note that the Angel Trains vehicles had their lease extended to be co-terminous with the rest of the fleet. This is shown in "Specified Additional Rolling Stock" in the same document.

I'd have thought the leased ones would have been stood down before the in-house ones, but I guess it depends on the Ts and Cs of the leasing contract.

There is no break-clause shown in the contract document I linked yo above. So if the operator wants to hand them back early (as they have done with a chunk of the fleet), they'll likely be paying up the lease on handback.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

The ones owned by First Rail Holdings are leased in the same way as trains are leased from any other ROSCO.

Surely those terms are different for each contract so there is no "same way"?

I'm sure GWR have better terms leasing First Group assets than say Arriva

 

[DelW]

The ones owned by First Rail Holdings are leased in the same way as trains are leased from any other ROSCO.

So does that mean that that lease is an internal contract between two different financial entities within First Group? I suppose that's not an uncommon arrangement in big companies, to limit risk (or indeed to move profits around and out of tax liabilities, though maybe not that in this case).

(Edit: answered by post 18 which wasn't visible earlier)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So does that mean that that lease is an internal contract between two different financial entities within First Group? I suppose that's not an uncommon arrangement in big companies, to limit risk (or indeed to move profits around and out of tax liabilities, though maybe not that in this case).

GWR and First Rail Holdings are run as two separate businesses with their own statutory directions and annual accounts.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

GWR and First Rail Holdings are run as two separate businesses with their own statutory directions and annual accounts.

I work for a business with a similar subsidiary, that means sod all

Our other customers of the parent company don't get cost pricing, free designs, or free use of the warehousing.

One owns the other, therefore there are favourable terms

 

[43096]

I work for a business with a similar subsidiary, that means sod all

Our other customers of the parent company don't get cost pricing, free designs, or free use of the warehousing.

One owns the other, therefore there are favourable terms

Every business is different.

 

[DelW]

A local contact with WSR connections says that Wednesday ticket sales in August were significantly higher than the norm, suggesting that the HST turns have proved popular. I'm not aware of any further plans to use them, but who knows what the future might hold?