HSTs - How long will they last?

[djw1981]

It is very possible that. Indeed, that was the plan after the ATP was made and put into service, to relegate the HST to secondary work. Obviously that never happened in the end.

As for the Voyager refurb, well it'll happen eventually. Of course the current layout will be pushed as much as possible until it really, really needs doing. But I believe we shouldn't expect a Voyager refurbishment for a good few years yet, as the current interiors should still last for a fair while. Personally expecting those to happen, if they do of course, around 2019 - 2022 myself. They'll probably get new seat covers and a re-vinyl eventually (going on their past record) when they pass over to Arriva later this year, but a proper refurb is not expected for some time yet.

IEP will probably actually begin on GW as it has the oldest stock out of the IC operators (a fairly dominant fleet of HST sets over 30 years old is where I get this guess from, whereas MML have fairly new Meridians, XC has Voyagers, WC has Pendolinos and ECML has Mallard MK4s, all of the other stock is much newer than that on GW), thus will probably make the biggest impact on passengers. I'd go as far as suggesting that Paddington - Bristol will probably be the first part of GW to get the IEP, followed shortly by Paddington - South Wales.

The IEP will be tested and introduced first onto the ECML, followed by the main build being released onto the GWML and ECML to replace the HST and Class 91/MkIV which will then by 30 years old, HST being 40 by that point (2016-18). If Pendelino lengthening does not take place soon, then IEP may be introduced to WCML to increase capacity.

 

[support-uk-rail]

HST's don't die.

 

[Techniquest]

But Meridians ARE comfier and rattle less that Voyagers!

James would be bursting out laughing at this next phrase. Thank the Jobcentre for the inspiration of this one:

Have you any evidence to support your claim?

Onto which I extend my thoughts with:

Meridians, comfortable? Does not compute! No backache? AAAAAA?!

222s are very uncomfortable. Indeed, when I bailed off 222101 I was glad to sit on 158759, much more comfortable and enjoyable. Nothing nice about the 222. Indeed, I'd have enjoyed getting a cutter's torch to it...

Actually, I'd rather sit on any seat on 220033 all the way from Penzance to Dundee than sit on any seat on 222101. Fact.

 

[djw1981]

IMHO There's no comfortable seats on a Voyager/Pendelino, hence you keep getting up to stretch you legs and walk to the sop instead of sitting waiting for a trolley as you would on an HST....

 

[Techniquest]

I can sit on a seat on any HST (SC or FC) for hours on end and not get uncomfortable. One of the few trains I can sleep on too. But I still find Voyagers and Pendolinos more comfortable than Meridians.

 

[Dennis]

IMHO There's no comfortable seats on a Voyager/Pendelino

Drivers seat?

Bog seat?

 

[me123]

IMHO There's no comfortable seats on a Voyager

I have to say that I llike the voyager seats, but my longest ourney on one is about an hour, and i could understand why they wold get uncomfortable after that.

 

[djw1981]

Try Glasgow - Birmingham via Newcastle......

The other week I did Glasgow - Edinburgh (170), Edinburgh to Leeds (220), Leeds - Carlisle (156) and Carlisle to Glasgow (390) in a day and the 170 was the most comfortable.

 

[Techniquest]

The seats on a 170 are comfortable, that's true. Well, not the 170/3s but hey.

Longest run I've done in one go on a Voyager is Birmingham to Glasgow Central (via WCML), although Edinburgh - Birmingham (again via WCML) is very similar in mileage. Can't say I was unhappy with those trips at all. Indeed, I quite enjoyed them!

 

[djw1981]

Ouyt of interest, how tall are you? Reason being that with the incresasingly moulded seats designed to provide more impact protection, I think they have been designed for people around a certain height (probably UK average). As someone smaller than average, I find the neck rest bit is the awkward bit on the voyagers.... On old HST / 156 / 158 this is not a problem, and I haven't been on a Mallard for long enough to notice if their new seats are just as bad.

 

[Techniquest]

5' 9.9", according to the printout from the machine in Boots. So not overly tall but not very short either.

It is the one problem I find with seats on HSTs, that I don't have the height of the seat behind my head/neck using which would probably be useful. Worth not worrying about with the extreme comfort overall though.

 

[me123]

I do love the FSR 170s, because the seats are absolutely fantastic! I was on a FSR turbo to Aberdeen for four hours (due to terrible delays) and didn't want to leave afterwards. Then, I went onto a 320...

 

[support-uk-rail]

Why build more HST's? The technology is now 30 years old; it would be like going into your local Ford dealer and asking for a Cortina!! .

Yes, but the HST didn't look gay after it was 8 years old, it wasn't the favourite car for 20 years, they wern't as reliable as you could drive one through a brick wall and continue going 125mph and we're talking millions not thousands. For every £1,000 spent on a car, £3,000,000 is spent on a train. Eat it

 

[Lewisham2221]

5' 9.9", according to the printout from the machine in Boots. So not overly tall but not very short either.

It is the one problem I find with seats on HSTs, that I don't have the height of the seat behind my head/neck using which would probably be useful. Worth not worrying about with the extreme comfort overall though.

The increased height of the seat back on Voyager's etc is one of the reasons why I tend to prefer Voyager seats to HST seats. Padding/softness wise I find there's very little difference. Most comfortable standard class seats on the current network from my experience are CT 170/5 and /6's. Certainly more comfortable than any HST seat I've ever sat in.

 

[class 313]

The increased height of the seat back on Voyager's etc is one of the reasons why I tend to prefer Voyager seats to HST seats. Padding/softness wise I find there's very little difference. Most comfortable standard class seats on the current network from my experience are CT 170/5 and /6's. Certainly more comfortable than any HST seat I've ever sat in.

The ex-MML 170/1s are nice as well, specially with disclassified FC!

 

[Dennis]

Yes, but the HST didn't look gay after it was 8 years old, it wasn't the favourite car for 20 years, they wern't as reliable as you could drive one through a brick wall and continue going 125mph and we're talking millions not thousands. For every £1,000 spent on a car, £3,000,000 is spent on a train. Eat it

I'm not suggesting for one moment the design concept of the HST is incorrect (as stated in my original post) but that technology has moved on. HST's have evolved over the years, and still provide one of the best rail travel experiences. The point is that evolution of the HST (and other trains) is governed by the funadamental construction - new engines and revised seat layouts, not a problem and these are regularly changed (the latest FGW and GNER refurbs being the latest in a string of evolutionary changes).

But, such changes have not removed some of the funadamental flaws such as slam doors and accident resistance. The other prime area where evolution of the HST has not kept pace is vehicle dynamics; one of the original design criteria of the HST was that a cup of coffee would not slop over (when traversing points etc) - this feat it manages, but modern designs can offer significant ride improvements over that of MkIII's.

Going back to the Cortina example, nowadays, the Mondeo is the equivalent vehicle in the Ford range - off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single feature of this which is inferior to the older Cortina; roomier, faster, more economical, cheaper (in real terms), better handling (i.e. improved vehicle dynamics), safer, comfier (air con, stereo and other items on the spec list) and even almost completely recyclable (in accordance with latest EU and global legislation).

The fundamental correctness of the HST design is given further credence by objective comparison with the T&T (class 31) services operated by Wessex trains a couple of years ago; consider the relative merits of class 150 v LHCS (Mk II TSO); from a passenger perspective the latter wins hands down but the out of date technology of the loco hauled services meant that these were slow, unreliable and expensive - exactly what any TOC does not want from a train.

 

[rebel]

I'm not suggesting for one moment the design concept of the HST is incorrect (as stated in my original post) but that technology has moved on. HST's have evolved over the years, and still provide one of the best rail travel experiences.

How true.

The HST is still quite probably THE finest diesel train the world has ever seen. Its longevity can certainly not be called into question, and its reliabilty is (generally) reasonably good, if you exclude the persistent problems with cooler groups that took the best part of 20 years to sort out. I worked very closely with the HST fleet for the best part of 15 years and aside from niggling operational shortcomings, I cant really fault them.

However...they arent going to last forever, and the train was designed by old boys with ready reckoners and a slide rule. Things have moved on since then in both interior and exterior design, ride quality and stability, crashworthiness (need I mention Lambrigg?) and a whole host of other developments. Something new is needed that can replace and upstage the HST, but im not entirely sure where thats going to come from. I personally have very little faith in the HST2 programme (or whatever the buzz word for it is this week) to deliver something which wil last as long and perform so well as the HST has.

Being a fan of loco haulage myself, id much rather see a fleet of new diesels and hauled stock, but operationally its a logistical nightmare. I certainly dont want to see more DEMU's. Underfloor engines are bad for reliability for a number of reasons, and passenger comfort leaves a lot to be desired because of it. The big plus with them though is that you can have two or three engines shut down, and still get home

What will come of the HST replacement i genuinely have no idea....but i doubt it will be half as good as the original.

 

[Techniquest]

IEP will never live up to the HST. I have no faith in it last for 30 years or more. Indeed, if it lasts more than 10 years I'll be surprised (that is without major faults cropping up all the time a la Adelante).

Excellent points made there Dennis. With regards to the ride quality, this is definately improved in some modern stock. The approaches/exits to/from Manchester Piccadilly (depending on which way you go with regards to the choices of words there) on a 150/1 are certainly not the smoothest (based on track conditions in May 2004). However, do the same move on a 390 and the difference is astronomical. More so if you watch a 142 doing the move in the opposite direction through the window!

Same thing applies to the 373s. On domestic track in Kent, even the 465/9s do not have a brilliant ride quality. Not poor but not brilliant either. Cover the same track on a 373 and it is ultra-smooth. I could not believe we didn't feel any points, jointed track or anything like that on the 373 in either direction, on either sets.

Of course, this is in no small part to over 25 years of new technology, new methods of building and so forth. I'm not saying for a minute the HST has a poor ride quality, but you compare it to a 373 and the difference is awesome.