How to launch a bus company

[The Ham]

One way of getting started would be to approach developers with new housing estates which need a new bus service add they will tend to cover the first three years of costs giving you a chance to build from there. It would also limit the risk of others trying to muscle in on your routes.

 

[DavidGrain]

Where I used to live the major operator pulled out of my local route causing me to have to make a much longer walk to the nearest main road. After a couple of small operators tried to serve the route and pulled out, a special needs transport charity, took over and operated it as a commercial service. After a few attempts at tweeking the route and running a different daytime route from the peak time route they are still in operation. I liked using them as they gave me a concessionary fare on my bus pass before 9.30.

 

[plarailfan]

Does the 2012 version differ from the original 1995 (ish) version?

I'm not sure about that, but I had a look and found this secondhand copy on ebay (£2.64 freepost) if it helps https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stagecoa...782383?hash=item1c870bcf2f:g:Dw8AAOSwK6RZLpZM

 

[Dentonian]

I'm not sure about that, but I had a look and found this secondhand copy on ebay (£2.64 freepost) if it helps https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stagecoa...782383?hash=item1c870bcf2f:g:Dw8AAOSwK6RZLpZM

I was three years out, but whilst the covers are somewhat different, I wondered whether it was just a rehash with the title remainig unchanged.

 

[GrogSmuggler]

Apologies, I can't find an absolutely definitive answer online. In terms of a Section 22 permit, would an Operators License still be required? I've read one reference that a PSV license is not required to start a non-for-profit operation, under a Section 22 permit.

However, if removing this large chunk of red tape and regulatory requirements was the case, then surely the barrier to entry becomes substantially lower? I appreciate that the operation must be for a wider social benefit, and still uphold the same level of rigorous safety standards; but I'm just wondering if I'm still missing a large chunk of the bigger picture in terms of the requirements?

What are the key steps towards launch, that differentiate between a traditional service, and that under a Section 22?

 

[WatcherZero]

Well the idea is they should be entirely non commercial, not taking direct (fare) or indirect (e.g subscription) payment from passengers to operate the service and being non-profit, not set up to make financial gain. i.e charity or grant funded service operating something like a church/sport team bus or a free public bus providing a link to an otherwise isolated community. Seperate fares are defined as where there isnt an individual passenger charge but a collective one, i.e free travel is included in the ticket sold for an event or you pay a membership subscription to an organisation to help its upkeep but not expressly in return for transport services.

In return for that they get a pretty lax regulatory environment reflecting that they are likely to be volunteer operated for social benefit and not run by professionals. You need to apply to the transport commissioner for a permit per vehicle but the permit is not tied to an individual vehicle, i.e you can swap the disc between vehicles. One vehicle cant carry a section 19 (non public) and section 22 (public) permit at the same time but again you can swap which vehicle carries which permit.

 

[GrogSmuggler]

If £35 per hour is the acceptable benchmark 'norm' for bus operation, does anyone know the average cost for operating a coach per hour?

 

[Cesarcollie]

If £35 per hour is the acceptable benchmark 'norm' for bus operation, does anyone know the average cost for operating a coach per hour?

I would be very wary of using £35 per hour for bus operation. I would be even more wary of coming up with ANY such figure for coach operation!! In an hour, a coach may do 10 miles on a contract or local private hire (fuel cost approx £5 + VAT) or 60 miles charging up a motorway (fuel cost approx £30 + VAT). Add in driver cost, maintenance, insurance etc and you can get a huge variation. Cost a local schools tender on the higher number and you won't win anything. Cost a private hire on the lower number and you could be bankrupt very quickly...... And with coaches, there's the wonderful old chestnut of utilisation..... How many days work a year are you going to assume for your coach, whether it be a spanking new £250,000 money pit or a £10,000 old banger? That assumption has a profound effect on how you cost jobs.....

 

[bussnapperwm]

Where I used to live the major operator pulled out of my local route causing me to have to make a much longer walk to the nearest main road. After a couple of small operators tried to serve the route and pulled out, a special needs transport charity, took over and operated it as a commercial service. After a few attempts at tweeking the route and running a different daytime route from the peak time route they are still in operation. I liked using them as they gave me a concessionary fare on my bus pass before 9.30.

Sounds like the #10/H/S service in Birmingham

 

[DavidGrain]

Sounds like the #10/H/S service in Birmingham

Correct.
Actually now NXWM, the major bus operator, now allows a concessionary fare of £1 before 9.30am thereby copying WM Special Needs Transport.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Correct.
Actually now NXWM, the major bus operator, now allows a concessionary fare of £1 before 9.30am thereby copying WM Special Needs Transport.

I know Diamond did at one stage charge 50p for TWM and concession pass holders (except on some tendered journeys on one service where it was the same driver and he didn't know half of the route he was allocated on, let alone the "specials" on the ticket machine), way back when they did the 9 (a fair bit of time ago!!), yet Central Connect, or Blue Diamond as they became, didn't.

I remember once blowing off a meet my ex girlfriend because Connect put a B10M on the 10H, on a Saturday peak, just to get it to Four Dwellings to meet up with the 99 to Halesowen. (Had to wait 35 minutes at Four Dwellings as the 99 went missing - bloody B6s!)

 

[Journeyman]

More than you could possibly need, and then more again. Sorry if that sounds negative but bus operation is NOT something you can enter into lightly, even if you only want to use one reconditioned bus on a weekly return journey from Little Snoring to Great Snoring for market day. Best to win the Lottery jackpot and see this as a way of dispensing with the part of it you don't really need for everyday living. Long-established operators, bus and coach, are falling by the wayside, even in areas where they've been household names for decades and have a good reputation. The bureaucracy is staggering now!

I studied bus deregulation in some depth when I did a Transport Planning degree in the late nineties - around this time, the big private operators like Stagecoach and First were expanding significantly and driving smaller operators off the road. It was all a far cry from the way the Tories imagined it would work - they seemed to think it would lower barriers to entry and allow small, innovative operators to thrive. There was this crazy idea that one-man, one-bus operations would become commonplace!

 

[Goldfish62]

I studied bus deregulation in some depth when I did a Transport Planning degree in the late nineties - around this time, the big private operators like Stagecoach and First were expanding significantly and driving smaller operators off the road. It was all a far cry from the way the Tories imagined it would work - they seemed to think it would lower barriers to entry and allow small, innovative operators to thrive. There was this crazy idea that one-man, one-bus operations would become commonplace!

Yes, I always found it astounding that a party so wedded to free market capitalism appeared to fail to understand how it works.

 

[DavidGrain]

Yes, I always found it astounding that a party so wedded to free market capitalism appeared to fail to understand how it works.

Yes they never learn. Something this morning reminded me of the Pensions Miss-selling problem. Transferable pensions was a good idea in theory from Mrs Thatcher's government but the practical application with so many people cheated out of their pension rights was not good.

 

[The Ham]

I have a question, assuming that you have a school bus service running between two locations what sort of uplift in cost would you likely be looking at if you were to want to use the buses to run as a community bus for the rest of the day?

 

[Ayman Ilham]

What would be required (specifically) to run coaches on a new limited stop bus route (including registering it) connecting Manchester and North Wales? The stopping points I have in mind Bangor Bus Station - Llandudno Junction Rail Station - Colwyn Bay Town Centre - St Asaph Cathedral - Chester Bus Station - Manchester Airport - Manchester Central (either Shudehill Interchange, Piccadilly Gardens, Stevenson Square, Chorlton Street bus stop or NatEx coach station; which one would be the best to use economic wise) making maximum use of the A55 and M56 to provide a connection cheaper and faster than the train! Starting frequency would be two coaches a day in each direction, so a coach starting at each end in the morning and returning there in the evening, allowing each side to have a day trip to the other. I know this would need at least three coaches (2 operational plus 1 spare) and the easiest available cheaply would be Plaxton Premieres (£3k-20k) and Van Hool T9s (£12k-£30k) on eBay, so let's assume those are used. The latter would certainly come DDA compliant but not too sure about the former.

 

[Ianno87]

What would be required (specifically) to run coaches on a new limited stop bus route (including registering it) connecting Manchester and North Wales? The stopping points I have in mind Bangor Bus Station - Llandudno Junction Rail Station - Colwyn Bay Town Centre - St Asaph Cathedral - Chester Bus Station - Manchester Airport - Manchester Shudehill making maximum use of the A55 and M56 to provide a connection cheaper and faster than the train! Starting frequency would be two coaches a day in each direction, so a coach starting at each end in the morning and returning there in the evening, allowing each side to have a day trip to the other. I know this would need at least three coaches (2 operational plus 1 spare) and the easiest available cheaply would be Plaxton Premieres (£3k-20k) and Van Hool T9s (£12k-£30k) on eBay, so let's assume those are used. The latter would certainly come DDA compliant but not too sure about the former.

Well, you'll need somewhere to park and service your coaches... and starting one at each end every day is not a very efficient way of doing that!

You might be faster than the train (though wouldn't be too sure with a detour via Chester Bus station...), but the frequency is nowherw near comparible with an hourly train service. Passengers would have to time their days around a specific coach each way... OAPs on a few free passes might do this...actual fare payind adults won't.

 

[carlberry]

I have a question, assuming that you have a school bus service running between two locations what sort of uplift in cost would you likely be looking at if you were to want to use the buses to run as a community bus for the rest of the day?

The real question is what you mean by 'community bus'. Small independents often run market day services in between school runs however the numbers had reduced over the last few years (both the number of operators bothering and the number of services) mostly because of the effects of free travel for pensioners reducing the income. The alternative of community bus operators running school services is getting a lot of scrutiny recently if they're operating them under their community license but compete for contracts with commercial operators.
Either way the fuel cost is greater (obviously) and the staff costs increase as a lot of school operation is based on a 'split shift' basis where the driver only gets paid for what they do (assuming a small scale operation).

 

[The Ham]

The real question is what you mean by 'community bus'. Small independents often run market day services in between school runs however the numbers had reduced over the last few years (both the number of operators bothering and the number of services) mostly because of the effects of free travel for pensioners reducing the income. The alternative of community bus operators running school services is getting a lot of scrutiny recently if they're operating them under their community license but compete for contracts with commercial operators.
Either way the fuel cost is greater (obviously) and the staff costs increase as a lot of school operation is based on a 'split shift' basis where the driver only gets paid for what they do (assuming a small scale operation).

The thinking is that if you have buses which aren't seeing a lot of use between school use (if any) then why not look at ways of using them to run a timetabled service.

I live somewhere where there 5 school buses and if you could use some or all of these to run an hourly, or better still half hourly service around the local borough to provide bus services where almost none exist (there are some buses but not many and they rarely connect together and there's a large area which would find it very hard to get to the council offices) then that would be of a great community benefit.

Due to the area a lot of people would want to travel before school drop off (8-8:30) to train stations, then you would have a day time service and then a break between 2-2:30 for the school run and then you could have an afternoon and early evening service.

The tubing being that some of the costs wouldn't change or would be fairly small increases (things like buying the vehicle, maintenance of the vehicles, head office costs, a basic profit for running the service, even possibly some of the costs associated with the staff), whilst others such as fuel and most of the driver costs would be extra.

With driver costs, I would assume that having a spilt shift would require some level of premium in the hourly rate which wouldn't exist if it were a normal shift.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Well, you'll need somewhere to park and service your coaches... and starting one at each end every day is not a very efficient way of doing that!

You might be faster than the train (though wouldn't be too sure with a detour via Chester Bus station...), but the frequency is nowherw near comparible with an hourly train service. Passengers would have to time their days around a specific coach each way... OAPs on a few free passes might do this...actual fare payind adults won't.

How many coaches do you reckon would be needed to make such a service hourly? And maybe instead of Chester, I could stop in Deeside Aston Road (just off the A494) to provide a faster connection between Manchester and North Wales? Or would it be better to stop in Chester Bus Station connection-wise? I mean there aren't many stops anyway so it wouldn't affect the timings too much!

 

[carlberry]

With driver costs, I would assume that having a spilt shift would require some level of premium in the hourly rate which wouldn't exist if it were a normal shift.

The answer to this is always going to be 'how long is a piece of string'. The classic small operator of school buses can usually find people who actually like the split shifts (or at least put up with them), then theres another level when the driver may be doing private hire in the day (obviously this dosent help the idea of using the bus in the day but does explain where a lot of the school vehicles/drivers go to). Larger operations usually mean that theres an agreement at a depot or company level about how split shifts are worked (if they're even allowed in some cases).

 

[DavidGrain]

Having read some of the replies to the idea of running a bus service from North Wales to Manchester in competition with the railway, I think that the only people who would use it would be Senior Citizens using their bus passes able to travel free. This brings in the complication of the border between England and Wales and how you would get revenue from these journeys. I don't know enough about cross border bus journeys to make any comment other than to say that you need to research this further.

 

[carlberry]

Having read some of the replies to the idea of running a bus service from North Wales to Manchester in competition with the railway, I think that the only people who would use it would be Senior Citizens using their bus passes able to travel free. This brings in the complication of the border between England and Wales and how you would get revenue from these journeys. I don't know enough about cross border bus journeys to make any comment other than to say that you need to research this further.

The cards are always valid on cross border journeys, but not for journeys within the 'foreign' area (i.e. Bristol-Newport is possible however Bristol-Chepstow then Chepstow-Newport means you have to pay again. However authorities can now define certain services as being outside the bus pass scheme if they are purely coach/tourist services. I don't believe that anybody has managed to make a service that relies mostly on bus pass revenue work outside of Scotland.

 

[DavidGrain]

The cards are always valid on cross border journeys, but not for journeys within the 'foreign' area (i.e. Bristol-Newport is possible however Bristol-Chepstow then Chepstow-Newport means you have to pay again. However authorities can now define certain services as being outside the bus pass scheme if they are purely coach/tourist services. I don't believe that anybody has managed to make a service that relies mostly on bus pass revenue work outside of Scotland.

Yes I was aware that bus passes were valid on cross boarder services. The point I was making was I did not know how the bus operator got the revenue from them. Did they have to make claims to the local authorities both sides of the border and would say Cheshire pay for the the English part of a journey made by a passenger holding a Conwy bus pass who got on the bus at Llandudno Junction to go to Chester? Or would the claim have to go back to Conwy?

Some years ago I spoke to someone who had travelled from Chester all the way to Barmouth free of charge on his English bus pass but he could no longer do that as the bus route had been severed at Wrexham.

 

[Dai Corner]

Not quite North Wales to Manchester, but somebody had a go at Shrewsbury to Manchester Airport and Chester to Liverpool Airport. It didn't end well

https://cbwmagazine.com/the-skiers-lodge-deregisters-services-at-short-notice/

Operator which licensed the easyCoach.com name claims ‘sabotage’ forced it to drop its bus services, though the company could face regulatory action

The Skiers Lodge Limited (TSL) t/a easyCoach.com has submitted to the DVSA to cancel existing services at short notice with effect from 9 September 2018.

The services affected are:

• EB5 Shrewsbury to Manchester Airport
• EB6 Chester to Liverpool Airport
• 2 Wrexham to Oswestry
• 2D Wrexham to Cefn Mawr
• 42 Wrexham to Wrexham Industrial Estates
• 44 Wrexham to Rhosddu
• 101 Bridgnorth Town Service

TSL only introduced the Wrexham services on 27 June, but Arriva Midlands North, the dominant operator in that region responded to the competition on route 2 by introducing a customer loyalty card offering its customers a free return journey after purchasing five single journeys on service 2, a £1 Top Up Ticket on services 2, 2A, 2B and 2C in Oswestry and a promotion where the operator asked: ‘Have you missed your bus from our fellow operator? Exchange your ticket and pay just £1 on our Arriva services.’

TSL also currently holds a three year contract to operate the Wrexham bus station information kiosk for Wrexham County Council.

A spokesperson from the Office of the Traffic Commissioner told CBW: “The Traffic Commissioner agreed to the early cessation of services but will be considering action under the Transport Act 1985 and also actions under section 155 of the Transport Act 2000 as a result of reported timetable failures.

“Additionally, he will be examining suggestions that TSL has been operating from within Wales when no licence was held.”

TSL has sent out a press release claiming that ‘sabotage’ has forced the operator to shutdown.

Owner Andrew Martin alleged that ‘certain individuals had been out to sabotage the business.’ He said: “They have escalated their action over recent weeks and certain incidents have been reported to the police.

“The safety of the general public, passengers and staff has always been of paramount importance to me. No expense has been spared in the maintenance of our vehicles.”

In a letter to staff, he wrote: “I am sorry that the action of certain individuals has been a serious contributory factor which has caused you to lose your employment and I would like to thank you for the hard work that you have put in over the last weeks and months.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Not quite North Wales to Manchester, but somebody had a go at Shrewsbury to Manchester Airport and Chester to Liverpool Airport. It didn't end well

https://cbwmagazine.com/the-skiers-lodge-deregisters-services-at-short-notice/

The thing is, they used minibuses rather than full-sized coaches! I'm pretty sure a Van Hool T9 would look way more attractive to ride than a Ford Transit, thus earning more passengers and therefore more money!

 

[johnnychips]

The thing is, they used minibuses rather than full-sized coaches! I'm pretty sure a Van Hool T9 would look way more attractive to ride than a Ford Transit, thus earning more passengers and therefore more money!

I really don’t think that potential passengers, rather than bus enthusiasts will be concerned about that. I think you (or the original poster) needs to win the lottery.

 

[carlberry]

The thing is, they used minibuses rather than full-sized coaches! I'm pretty sure a Van Hool T9 would look way more attractive to ride than a Ford Transit, thus earning more passengers and therefore more money!

If they couldn't make a minibus pay, they'd just lose money faster with a coach. There may be a small number of people who'd be more attracted by a coach but most of the potential market is just going to use it anyway (without it looks truly uncared for or dangerous) and every time I've seen one they've been fully liveried and presentable, even the buses on the short lived venture in Wrexham.