How should trains be secured?

[Bletchleyite]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...an-moving-controls.271956/page-3#post-6887362

What kind of new tamper- and terrorist-proof security / lock should 'new' traction be fitted with? Bearing in mind that various different manufacturers supply stock to UK operators, would a standard universal key be approved or should a different key be required dependent on type of train, for added 'security'? That's gonna be a lot of keys for some drivers to carry around.

Some sort of electronic lock would be a good plan. Master keys per class could exist in the event of failure but be kept under high security at the depot, and ideally be "security keys" (e.g. Master Lock Mul-T-Lock) to be hard to copy.

 

[lyndhurst25]

The MasterLock brand has a terrible reputation for producing locks that are easy to bypass. See the various lock picking channels on YouTube.

The place where I work must have spent tens of thousands of pounds installing electronic locks on all doors, opened using contactless cards. It turns out that these cards can be easily cloned using a gadget that is freely available to purchase online for less than £10.

Security is never easy or cheap.

 

[HSTEd]

How many trains have actually been operated in an unsafe manner as a result of these keys being easily available?

Any kind of security lock programme be expensive and time consuming to implement.
I'm not sure I see the safety benefit here.

 

[signed]

Electronic locks outside of a building is not a good idea, unless you have thought the emergency/out of power situations

We see that with electronic car keys, where they still need to supply emergency keys and if your battery dies, you can't open the trunk in most cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The MasterLock brand has a terrible reputation for producing locks that are easy to bypass. See the various lock picking channels on YouTube.

Sorry, I meant Mul-T-Lock who are a reputable producer of security keys. I'll update the original post. Master Lock indeed produce key boxes of dubious security.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2024 ==

Electronic locks outside of a building is not a good idea, unless you have thought the emergency/out of power situations

Many such locks have the option to connect a 9V battery to power the lock even if everything else relating to it has lost power.

 

[signed]

Many such locks have the option to connect a 9V battery to power the lock even if everything else relating to it has lost power.

Would you really want drivers to carry a 9V battery and fiddle with it in a emergency situation in the middle of the tracks?

Security must not impede on safety, and I'm of the opinion that electronic locks would (unless genuinely thought out of course).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you really want drivers to carry a 9V battery and fiddle with it in a emergency situation in the middle of the tracks?

No more difficult than inserting a key.

One option would be that we stick with the T-key for entering the cab but secure all the controls with a proximity card. Thus if someone gets in they can't do any harm. That after all is how most modern cars work (you might be able to break in but you won't be able to move it without the fob short of craning it onto a flatbed) and it's pretty reliable, I've never known it fail.

 

[signed]

One option would be that we stick with the T-key for entering the cab but secure all the controls with a proximity card. Thus if someone gets in they can't do any harm.

That sounds like a better approach

 

[Trackman]

Electronic locks outside of a building is not a good idea, unless you have thought the emergency/out of power situations

We see that with electronic car keys, where they still need to supply emergency keys and if your battery dies, you can't open the trunk in most cars.

Most electronic locks for buildings etc have a physical back-up option if no power.

 

[Re 4/4]

The Swiss have a solution. It's made by Keso (part of Assa Abloy) and it's a metal cover that can be retrofitted over a T key lock. You need a special key to unlock the box which slides across, revealing the original lock underneath. Details are top secret but it's supposed to be vandal-proof among other things, and seems to work without electricity. You definitely can't buy spares online.

 

[Trainbike46]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...an-moving-controls.271956/page-3#post-6887362



Some sort of electronic lock would be a good plan. Master keys per class could exist in the event of failure but be kept under high security at the depot, and ideally be "security keys" (e.g. Master Lock Mul-T-Lock) to be hard to copy.

What I would ask is, what are we trying to achieve with this?

Is there a problem of people breaking into trains? are people breaking in and taking a joyride with a train? Is it about graffiti when trains are parked up?

What is the best solution depends on what you're trying to achieve. A simple T-lock prevents people wandering where they're not supposed to go, which seems like the main point to me, and is operationally much easier than individual keys for each train.

If it is about grafiti, I would suggest it's better to secure the depot, so that both the inside and the outside is protected

 

[Skie]

An RFID card or fob would be pretty secure for a fleet that has decent network connectivity (not live, just able to receive regular database updates). Just like a building pass, they can be deactivated remotely when a driver leaves or reports it stolen.

For a train that is integrated heavily with its TMS it wouldn’t be hard to include. For more traditional units it would be harder, but not impossible.