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How could bus and railway stations be better integrated going forward?

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RT4038

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In terms of hierarchy of transport users, walking and cycling come at the top of the pyramid. Integration with motorised modes should respect high quality walking and cycling routes on desire lines, ideally in urban environments with active frontages.
A line of empty shops with graffiti covered shutters etc., maybe a dodgy vape shop or barbers.....? There is not much call for active frontages at present (far less any ability for Local Authorities to ensure that they are 'active'), especially I would suggest in places like Gateshead and Heworth....

In a city centre context, the primary concern should be the best pedestrian environment for those accessing employment and retail/hospitality on foot / Bromptons, so rationalising bus bays to 'a buffer distance away' from the entrances of Lime Street and Leeds City is the correct course.
In other words relegating bus interchange to being further away, to the detriment of interchanging elderly and disabled passengers presumably? Hardly a suggestion for the OP 'How could bus and railway stations be better integrated going forward'
If the local populace and politicians are this uncompromisingly car-brained then talk of bus interchange is pi$$ing in the wind.



Yes? Ideally the homes would be higher density and still close to a station, but even London has Barrett boxes with poor public transport. Building the (allegedly) largest office park in the UK with no access to the Metro was pure stupidity. North Tyneside Council are really taking the mick, moving their offices there and then asking the rest of the country to subsidise the Metro they part own.
Which is exactly the sort of conditions that are found pretty much the length and breadth of the land!

Much as your ideas might have some merit, I have not seen any suggestion as to how current planning and developing (mainly populated by car users and car orientated people , catering for like minded people) is actually going to move towards this utopia?
 
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The exile

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Much as your ideas might have some merit, I have not seen any suggestion as to how current planning and developing (mainly populated by car users and car orientated people , catering for like minded people) is actually going to move towards this utopia?
The first thing, before any kind of infrastructure changes (unless they are necessary for other reasons) is to establish full fares and ticketing integration (at least within “travel to work areas) so that if I want to travel from a suburb of A to the town centre of B it costs the same whether I go all the way on one bus; change bus (and operator) twice or get a bus to “A” railway station, train to B and then bus onward to “B” town centre. Get that to be the “norm” then the demand for physical integration will slowly grow.
 

NCT

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A line of empty shops with graffiti covered shutters etc., maybe a dodgy vape shop or barbers.....? There is not much call for active frontages at present (far less any ability for Local Authorities to ensure that they are 'active'), especially I would suggest in places like Gateshead and Heworth....

In other words relegating bus interchange to being further away, to the detriment of interchanging elderly and disabled passengers presumably? Hardly a suggestion for the OP 'How could bus and railway stations be better integrated going forward'

'What about the elderly and disabled' is a very British and American knee-jerk reaction against active travel. Active travel infrastructure benefit the elderly and disabled too by giving them a nicer and safer walking and wheeling environment.

Bus integration has to be considered in the context of place making, otherwise it's a superficial topic.

Which is exactly the sort of conditions that are found pretty much the length and breadth of the land!

Much as your ideas might have some merit, I have not seen any suggestion as to how current planning and developing (mainly populated by car users and car orientated people , catering for like minded people) is actually going to move towards this utopia?

This isn't utopia. It's current government planning guidance. It's the philosophy adopted across West Midlands, Yorkshire, Greater Manchester and Greater Liverpool. T&W stand out as being about 20 years behind. It's the norm across much of Europe.
 

GingerSte

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Just to add to the discussion about Leeds in particular, the West Yorkshire Mass Transit proposed routes through Leeds seem to avoid the bus station completely. Only one of them (L4) goes anywhere near the bus station. To me, that is a missed opportunity.

West Yorkshire Mass Transit - Routes through Leeds CC

I would be tempted to try and figure out which location (or combination of locations) would be needed for a tram stop to join up with as many bus routes as possible. The designers of the tram might have done that, as far as I know.
 

Technologist

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Such a debate is pretty pointless without considering what will happen in the near future due to autonomous cars.

I was recently listening to the YIMBY podcast where a think tanker was talking about their plans for bus/train integration in the Hope Valley and the creation of a Mini-Switzerland, their argument was that autonomy would just result in cheaper to operate buses. I think that this view is based on modelling autonomous cars and buses as taxis and buses, which I think is incorrect.

My view is that very rapidly shared autonomous cars will undercut car ownership. The million mile capable autonomous EV with robot cleanable interior will not cost much more than a current budget EV and it will have 8X the utilisation so will cost approximately 1/8 the cost per mile of current cars. Competition will squeeze most of the profit out of the sector, the winners will make it big just because they can corner a very big market, not because they will get a big payment per usage It will be a hell of a lot cheaper than owning a car, and you don't have to park it.

The gateway drug is that lots of two car families will dump their second car, but pretty soon after that they will realise that all the benefits of owning their remaining car are pretty marginal compared to the savings of just using an autonomous car all the time. Once ~5-10% of cars on the roads are shared autonomous then you pretty much guarantee that one will be close to you at any point in time meaning you aren't waiting for one to arrive or worrying about availability.

The argument against autonomous cars then becomes congestion, induced demand and zero occupancy cars dead heading, I think this misses a few points:

  • In most places at most times the roads are not congested, this indicates that demand is satisfied and that the situation would not be changed by some extra traffic from induced demand (most of which will come from the most deprived groups)
  • Where there is congestion it is normally at peak times and the roads would actually work if only a relatively small number of cars were shared. Sharing is not particularly difficult if every car on the roads is currently part of a shared fleet. There will be someone doing a similar trip to you, if they aren't then just travel alone as before. Cars will be set up so you don't have to interact with other passengers if you don't want to.
  • Dynamic road pricing would be pretty easy to integrate into a shared autonomous fleet.
  • Given average car occupancy is 1.5 we can most likely eliminate congestion, induce demand, reduce traffic volumes and put all the current bus passengers into autonomous cars without needing a vehicle with more than about 8 seats.
As for integration with rail, this integrates pretty seamlessly, the question then becomes can rail offer something better than just riding the autonomous vehicle all the way. See my multiple previous post on why I think we need to be a lot more aggressive on train performance using the same basic tools of high density batteries, high power motors and cheap computation and sensing that autonomous cars use.
 

Bletchleyite

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The argument against autonomous cars then becomes congestion, induced demand and zero occupancy cars dead heading, I think this misses a few points:

  • In most places at most times the roads are not congested, this indicates that demand is satisfied and that the situation would not be changed by some extra traffic from induced demand (most of which will come from the most deprived groups)
  • Where there is congestion it is normally at peak times and the roads would actually work if only a relatively small number of cars were shared. Sharing is not particularly difficult if every car on the roads is currently part of a shared fleet. There will be someone doing a similar trip to you, if they aren't then just travel alone as before. Cars will be set up so you don't have to interact with other passengers if you don't want to.
  • Dynamic road pricing would be pretty easy to integrate into a shared autonomous fleet.
  • Given average car occupancy is 1.5 we can most likely eliminate congestion, induce demand, reduce traffic volumes and put all the current bus passengers into autonomous cars without needing a vehicle with more than about 8 seats.

I'm unconvinced, simply because wherever it has been done many to many demand responsive transport (DRT) has been an expensive failure because you simply don't actually get the journey synergies. Sure, you save your staffing cost, but with the lack of staff comes the likes of vandalism, littering, vomiting and other antisocial misuse.

You also have the disadvantage of there being no guarantee a car will be available at the required time. I can quite happily leave the house 15 minutes before a train because the car is just there if I'm driving (20 if cycling, 30 if walking). But I need to go with 30 if using a taxi as there might or might not be one available, so I only ever do that if I have luggage, not as a time saver.

I thus cannot see the model of owning or leasing a private car changing, nor can I see the model of large buses and rail changing very much even if we might end up moving to a "guard only operation" type model and perhaps lose a few branch lines. While potentially cheaper than ownership it just has too many disadvantages. I doubt it will get much further than the removal of some second family runabouts.

And for intercity rail, it is simply more efficient in every way to move 1000 people on one train with one driver/guard than even say 200 autonomous vehicles. In reality the latter will just replace taxis to get to/from the station at each end but everything else is likely to look largely the same.
 

The exile

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I'm unconvinced, simply because wherever it has been done many to many demand responsive transport (DRT) has been an expensive failure because you simply don't actually get the journey synergies. Sure, you save your staffing cost, but with the lack of staff comes the likes of vandalism, littering, vomiting and other antisocial misuse.

You also have the disadvantage of there being no guarantee a car will be available at the required time. I can quite happily leave the house 15 minutes before a train because the car is just there if I'm driving (20 if cycling, 30 if walking). But I need to go with 30 if using a taxi as there might or might not be one available, so I only ever do that if I have luggage, not as a time saver.

I thus cannot see the model of owning or leasing a private car changing, nor can I see the model of large buses and rail changing very much even if we might end up moving to a "guard only operation" type model and perhaps lose a few branch lines. While potentially cheaper than ownership it just has too many disadvantages. I doubt it will get much further than the removal of some second family runabouts.

And for intercity rail, it is simply more efficient in every way to move 1000 people on one train with one driver/guard than even say 200 autonomous vehicles. In reality the latter will just replace taxis to get to/from the station at each end but everything else is likely to look largely the same.
Indeed - while an “on demand” autonomous car pool will be ideal for the kind of journey which fits neatly into a planner’s theories, many people’s lives are much messier (as are their cars). Yes - one can (will maybe have to) adapt, but In sure a lot of people will take a lot of convincing (replacement for second car I can envisage being much easier to accept as that still leaves a car that can do all the transporting of stuff without having to empty it all at the end of every journey as the car isn’t yours)
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I do agree with @Bletchleyite in terms of the future of autonomous cars. As we've seen with various bike and scooter sharing schemes (not just DRT), the abuse of the system and the lack of synergistic flows mean that the theory is unlikely to be backed up with reality. However, I think we're perhaps veering away from the topic somewhat :D

In my experience, bus/rail has a few simple yet very difficult challenges to overcome.

Feeding into local hubs is something that is mentioned consistently. As we saw in Tyne and Wear, that was tackled with some excellent integration in places such as Four Lane Ends and Heworth. Now notwithstanding the views of @RT4038 and @NCT (who have both discussed things eloquently), the concept of these metro stations was as a means to funnel passengers into the metro station and because of that, services were recast with the removal of most through services to Newcastle and a consequent PVR drop as many older vehicles were culled and TWPTE had a five year holiday on new vehicles. So why did the metro work...and what happened after deregulation? Well, had the 1980-2 service recasts not taken place, the reality would have been that many of those services would've died anyway with the metro introduction; we've seen with tram introductions in Manchester there has been massive abstraction where bus services that ran parallel to Eccles New Road, Washway Road, Oldham Road and others are much reduced from their previous provision. It really does nail the lie that buses compete with rail; where buses and trains nominally "compete", it's usually because the train has some major disadvantage and that's often because the station(s) are poorly located. In Newcastle, that was partially overcome with the metro by digging a massive set of tunnels to enable city centre penetration, and that some of the other major stations were in decent locations to local town centres e.g. South Shields, Tynemouth but not all - e.g. Whitley Bay. To use another example like Bristol... it wouldn't work if you decided to remove Thornbury and north Bristol services and simply funnel them into Bristol Parkway and then dump them in Temple Meads. You can get away with making a one stage into a two journey if there's a rough neutrality on buggeration but not a feeder into a station to have a train that dumps you in a poorly located station.

Whilst the metro did lose passengers, a significant element of that was because of some of the enforced changes that really went again human nature i.e. the fact that at Gateshead, many were forced to change. It's like removing wholemeal bread from supermarkets, and then claiming that everyone loves white bread when they have no other choice! However, that was the most egregious example and it was noticeable that many of the services that had been truncated at places like Jarrow, Heworth and FLE were never extended back to Newcastle... the financial impact/benefit was too limited to outweigh the convenience. At this point, I will point out that the facilities at Heworth and FLE were relatively basic as they were designed to have limited waiting times between frequent buses and metro trains, and weren't ever envisaged in having any other role as becoming a local centre or destination.

As I've mentioned above, physical proximity is an issue in many towns and cities. Stations aren't just peripherally located but can have limited areas for accommodating buses in any case. In some (often southern) towns, this might make them attractive locations for residential development, although that isn't always the case. For every Woking, there's a Middlesbrough. Alternatively, we have some areas that have poor topography (e.g. Durham, Chester le Street) or are just very tight on space (e.g. Salisbury). This might be a consequence of our Victorian entrepreneurs and a lack of joined up planning in 1871 but it doesn't make it any easier now. That's aside from the costs of running additional vehicles etc to serve stations for the few passengers who do want to travel.

Then we have the issue of ticketing and revenue apportionment. Now you can simply adopt a view that it's a blank cheque called "public transport" and who cares what mode incurs costs or attracts revenue. That's the way of the absolute-ist. However, I'd argue that even that doesn't happen in every European country and they do make decisions based on cost/benefit criteria. Certainly, we struggle to have the funds to support bus and rail in this country as it is.

There are certainly examples where we really could do things better... for instance, Cardiff council deciding to relocate that bus station and liberate some land value was a terrible example, the poor publicity of PlusBus schemes, etc and I could go on. However, the idea that every bus service in Exeter should be routed and terminate at Exeter St Davids... just ain't gonna happen.
 

NCT

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The fact is that often there is, and has often been, insufficient fare revenue to justify extending services and incurring additional cost even in the halcyon days of regulation and public ownership. Now in other countries, and let's face it, we're talking about Western European countries, they may well be happy to spend funds on additional vehicles in order to extend services to/from stations, and also not worry about revenue apportionment etc. Given we struggle to fund what we have, I'm not confident that will happen here soon.

I would be genuinely interested to see figures from somewhere like Germany or Netherlands that show the actual level of passenger flow from bus to rail etc.

Also, having all services operating between the central bus hub and railway station creates a bus wall that just isn't nice. Wilmslow Road and pre 2016 Oxford Street weren't talked about in good light. Routing a decent proportion of bus routes via the station and creating a good high-frequency service to the centre is the way to go. As far as I can see places like Nottingham, Preston, Northampton and Rugby all succeed in this regard.
 

Technologist

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I'm unconvinced, simply because wherever it has been done many to many demand responsive transport (DRT) has been an expensive failure because you simply don't actually get the journey synergies. Sure, you save your staffing cost, but with the lack of staff comes the likes of vandalism, littering, vomiting and other antisocial misuse.

Errrr have you noticed the multiple cities where autonomous taxis are running? All of the above issues are easily handled because the person hiring has to use ID and it's pretty easy to do a before and after image of the vehicle then use AI to detect vandalism or soiling and then bill them. If that doesn't work, then the next user just reports it.

You also have the disadvantage of there being no guarantee a car will be available at the required time. I can quite happily leave the house 15 minutes before a train because the car is just there if I'm driving (20 if cycling, 30 if walking). But I need to go with 30 if using a taxi as there might or might not be one available, so I only ever do that if I have luggage, not as a time saver.

I covered this in my post, you cannot use anecdotes related to your current usage of human driven taxis to work out what the response to ubiquitous autonomous vehicles will be. The two are very different beasts in their final form.

At the moment a tiny fraction of cars are taxis and those are still driven by people who have operating hours. The first impact of proper self driving will be to make taxis dramatically cheaper which will massively induce demand on its own. The more taxis there are the closer any one will be. When you are at the point where a double digit percentage of car journeys are done by shared autonomous vehicles then the number of cars is massive. Let's do a thought experiment?

Let's say 10% of car journeys are done by a shared autonomous fleet. This fleet of cars has a utilisation rate around 10 times higher than the current fleet. This would mean that in the 400m around where you currently are 10% of the cars currently moving would be a shared autonomous car and 1% of the parked fleet would be one. How many cars are currently within 400m of you?

For me in a suburb of a medium sized city the population density of 3600/km2, there would be just over 1000 cars parked up in the 0.5km2 that a 400m circle around me represents. So at this 10% market penetration and 10x higher utilisation there would be 10 cars currently sat within 1 minutes drive of me.

In your specific use case of a taxi to the station within an autonomous taxi service I'm sure there would be a book and wait function.

I thus cannot see the model of owning or leasing a private car changing, nor can I see the model of large buses and rail changing very much even if we might end up moving to a "guard only operation" type model and perhaps lose a few branch lines. While potentially cheaper than ownership it just has too many disadvantages. I doubt it will get much further than the removal of some second family runabouts.

See above, the autonomous taxi has been here for a few years, it is gradually rolling out, all of the issues are being worked through. It's probably where the internet was in the late 90's where people with similar viewpoints to yourself failed to see any usage cases for it in their lives but non the less tens of thousands of people were still working on it, they aren't going to give up, there isn't an issue that hasn't got a solution to it and the solution will be found because of the inherent economics of autonomous cars.

The biggest cost of motoring is buying the vehicle, the biggest cost of a taxi is paying the driver. Autonomous cars will be able to drive at least 10 times further in a year than a regular car, the cost per mile will be dramatically lower. Owning a car is either the biggest or second biggest cost in most houses, people aren't going to keep paying thousands of pounds a year paying finance and insurance on cars that they then have to park inconveniently in car parks away from wherever it is they are going.

It doesn't matter that most people wouldn't give up their car today its a rolling process. The taxis arrive, people get used to them, the cost comes down people start using them a lot, some people start getting rid of second cars, they stop buying new cars, they notice they haven't used their own car for a week or two. It's like land lines, most people didn't make a conscious choice to get rid of them they just stopped using them at different rates.

And for intercity rail, it is simply more efficient in every way to move 1000 people on one train with one driver/guard than even say 200 autonomous vehicles. In reality the latter will just replace taxis to get to/from the station at each end but everything else is likely to look largely the same.

Point in principle, for all this talk of intercity train's efficiency an EV with one person on board has a lower cost per mile. An autonomous EV that is utilised at an even higher rate will beat it by an even greater margin. The real threat for intercity is the point when we integrate dynamic pricing into the model and all long distance car journeys are conducted without congestion. Again we don't needed buses to do this, just a portion of the most cost sensitive users to share vehicles.

At this point rail needs to be able to go much faster than cars door to door and needs to have the level of utilisation whereby the cost per passenger mile can be remotely comparable to driving. We aren't going to be able to operate a mixed traffic railway, everything is going to need to be high performance and high frequency.

If we aren''t talking about autonomy it's like discussing whether Blue Ray vs HD DVD would win in 2007, when it was pretty obvious that the answer was internet video. The same sort of arguments came up there about ownership of media, unreliability of the internet or the roll out of broadband.
 
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TheGoodDoctor

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With good timing, DfT has just released "Better Connected: a strategy for integrated transport" on the 2nd April. It was discussed on Green Signals which is where I heard of it.

It pretty much mentions all of the solutions and issues mentioned already by @NCT and others. Namely, the priorities are:
  1. Simplify payments and information
  2. Provide dependable and safe journeys
  3. Make travel accessible and affordable
  4. Create healthier communities
  5. Align transport and development
  6. Champion data and technology
  7. Empower local leaders
  8. Optimise decision-making and appraisal
I haven't read the doc in full yet, but it covers old ground with the touted simplification of fares with GBR and the bus fare cap at £3, but it does appear to acknowledge the ways the integration between different modes can be better. The connectivity tool looks interesting and talk of more open access data is positive.

As an aside, it is quite crass to put an AI generated image as their representative for accessibility on page 49. Are there really no photos of wheelchair users getting off buses? Seems to be the only one in the document.
 
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