Hayes Line peak frequency

[Mastermind88]

How easily could the Hayes and Sidcup line diagramming be separated, so the formations allocated to each line stay on that line all day, rather than alternate between the two as they do currently? There might be scope for one or two 12-car diagrams if these were separated out. The Sidcup line could just about get away with no 12-cars on the basis of its enhanced frequency in the peaks, although if possible I'd have the 17:51 CHX-Gillingham and one of the Strood-CHX morning peak diagrams 12-car, as these are usually very busy. The Gillingham service in particular is formed of an allocation that runs ECS before and after this service so could be easier to make any length (usually 10-car atm).

The issue is train crew and lack of PNB points for the Hayes route, the only location is at Charing Cross and it isnt great for performance to have all train crew being relieved at Charing Cross since the Depot is not the largest and if any thing happens service recovery is not easy, therefore Hayes services need to be interworked with another service and if you calculate the time it takes from Dartford - CHX - Hayes - CHX - Dartford it is a nice block of work for Drivers to have before their maximum Driving time is up and they need relieving

 

[Stephen42]

How easily could the Hayes and Sidcup line diagramming be separated, so the formations allocated to each line stay on that line all day, rather than alternate between the two as they do currently? There might be scope for one or two 12-car diagrams if these were separated out. The Sidcup line could just about get away with no 12-cars on the basis of its enhanced frequency in the peaks, although if possible I'd have the 17:51 CHX-Gillingham and one of the Strood-CHX morning peak diagrams 12-car, as these are usually very busy. The Gillingham service in particular is formed of an allocation that runs ECS before and after this service so could be easier to make any length (usually 10-car atm).

In addition to the train crew complexity, the main challenge is Charing Cross rather than any of the other stations along the route. There's nothing stopping a 12-car cycling between Hayes and Dartford via Sidcup if it remains on the right half of Charing Cross throughout. At peak times normally the train needs to arrive two minutes earlier or later swapping with another one to be able to use the other half of the station.

12-car Networker operation is only allowed up to Gravesend, anything to Strood or Gillingham isn't currently permitted. Gillingham depot would also need to couple/decouple within the depot for 12-car trains as none of the stabling roads are long enough.

 

[brad465]

The issue is train crew and lack of PNB points for the Hayes route, the only location is at Charing Cross and it isnt great for performance to have all train crew being relieved at Charing Cross since the Depot is not the largest and if any thing happens service recovery is not easy, therefore Hayes services need to be interworked with another service and if you calculate the time it takes from Dartford - CHX - Hayes - CHX - Dartford it is a nice block of work for Drivers to have before their maximum Driving time is up and they need relieving

I see, thanks for confirming.

12-car Networker operation is only allowed up to Gravesend, anything to Strood or Gillingham isn't currently permitted. Gillingham depot would also need to couple/decouple within the depot for 12-car trains as none of the stabling roads are long enough.

Do you know why they can't be in service that far as 12-car? AIUI all the platforms involved are 12-car, unless it is solely the depot length problems.

 

[Mastermind88]

I see, thanks for confirming.

Do you know why they can't be in service that far as 12-car? AIUI all the platforms involved are 12-car, unless it is solely the depot length problems.

There isnt any issue with running 12 car networkers except that due to dispatch sighting issues 4 members of staff are required at Strood (even though its DOO) and Gillingham Platform 1 can be very tight to turn a 12 car round in because there would be signal sighting issue at the London End.

Also all roads other than the Shunt Neck and Reception Road at Gillingham are maximum of 10 cars so units would need to be detached and formed up on the Reception Road which isnt reliable for performance

 

[frankmoh]

If only I had found this thread earlier.

Or build additional exits by the back of the train on arrival at a key terminus, so passengers have a quick means of getting in/out the station along a greater length. The front is busy because at most London terminals, the main/only exit is at the front of the train. Trains heading away from the main terminus are not so bad, as passengers have more time to spread out and head for the carriage closest to the exit of their local station, which is not always the same one along the length of the train. The back tends to be busier though as the last minute arrivals obviously get on the first door to ensure they board before it's too late.

London Bridge isn't so bad as it has multiple exits along the platform, while Waterloo East has two, depending on onward destination, but both Cannon Street and Charing X* have exits only at the front, as does Victoria and St Pancras.

*Charing X does have a bridge halfway along the platform with an exit to street level, but the exit is only open for a few hours at the height of the morning peak.

Waterloo East has 3 exits technically. One into Waterloo, one down the 100 steps to Sandall Street and the final one is through the entrance to Southwark Station. However no one uses this one because you get charged extra for going through the 2 ticket barriers. Maybe they would incentivise people using it if they just removed the charge.

 

[Horizon22]

However no one uses this one because you get charged extra for going through the 2 ticket barriers. Maybe they would incentivise people using it if they just removed the charge.

You do not if you exit the station completely through the Southwark LU street entrance.

Also you really shouldn’t anyway because you should:

• Tap in at origin
• Tap out at Waterloo East
• Walk the few metres of “dead space”
• Tap in at Southark
• Then either
  • Tap out at Southark (Blackfriars Rd / Cut exit)
  • Tap out at your destination via Jubilee line.

This will work out as a complete journey via an OSI (as shown here).

 

[frankmoh]

You do not if you exit the station completely through the Southwark LU street entrance.

Also you really shouldn’t anyway because you should:

• Tap in at origin
• Tap out at Waterloo East
• Walk the few metres of “dead space”
• Tap in at Southark
• Then either
  • Tap out at Southark (Blackfriars Rd / Cut exit)
  • Tap out at your destination via Jubilee line.

This will work out as a complete journey via an OSI (as shown here).

I do have a feeling it's TfL being a bit cheeky for having the exit (from Southwark) within view of the Waterloo East exit but it not being a full journey. I do understand it is 100% for SE commuters wishing to carry on their journey from one Metro-Cammell to the other but still.

Anyways this does not have much to do with anything about the Hayes line and I have been told off by staff too many times here for being off topic.

12-car can be done on the Hayes line easily (provided sufficient Networkers), but even in rush hour I have never seen anyone use the rear 2 carriages on a 10 car train so I would assume doubling the amount of rear seating would not actually boost IRL capacity. People getting off at London Bridge or Waterloo East are usually more spread out though compared to people getting off at Charing Cross (the majority).

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know, but even if it does this line is probably a long way down the list of those that need the few 12-car services possible (based on available loadings and platform limitations at Charing X). Currently the Sevenoaks' stoppers get them all; in May the Bexleyheath line gets a morning 12-car diagram too, but after that the Sidcup line would be a bigger draw (I wonder if this line not getting any 12s is a sign the Hayes line can't do 12 car as Sidcup and Hayes' services alternate between each other)?

Long term, what the Hayes line needs is to become part of the Bakerloo line, which would boost capacity significantly, but that's another debate entirely.

It seems bizarre. I remember works for the 12 carriage train scheme in 1995 in South East London. We all know that the 12 carriage trains didn't arrive due to a downturn in traffic at the time, however it seems preposterous that we are still struggling to get twelve carriage trains thirty years later. What has the industry been doing in that time !

 

[frankmoh]

It seems bizarre. I remember works for the 12 carriage train scheme in 1995 in South East London. We all know that the 12 carriage trains didn't arrive due to a downturn in traffic at the time, however it seems preposterous that we are still struggling to get twelve carriage trains thirty years later. What has the industry been doing in that time !

Blame Connex for not making their 376 order 4 carriages/8-car even though one of their London termini could only fit 8-car trains. Amazing work from them. They didn't even get to experience what a mess it would be because they were stripped of the franchise before they started service.

I cannot blame the 707 because it's not really SE's train.