Hammmersmith to Bracknell

[SWT_USER]

Hi all,

I will shortly be leaving work in Hammersmith to go for a few drinks in Bracknell. I plan to take the District line to Richmond and then SWT to Bracknell. I have a zone 2-4 Oyster travelcard, I have a short time at Richmond to make the connection from the tube. As I can't buy a BZ4- Bracknell ticket from Hammersmith will I be allowed to buy this on the train or at Bracknell without being PF'd?

Apologies for bad spelling - sent from my mobile!

 

[Mojo]

Hi all,

I will shortly be leaving work in Hammersmith to go for a few drinks in Bracknell. I plan to take the District line to Richmond and then SWT to Bracknell. I have a zone 2-4 Oyster travelcard, I have a short time at Richmond to make the connection from the tube. As I can't buy a BZ4- Bracknell ticket from Hammersmith will I be allowed to buy this on the train or at Bracknell without being PF'd?

Apologies for bad spelling - sent from my mobile!

If you cannot get your ticket from Hammersmith, then yes, you can buy your ticket at your destination, provided you leave the minimum connection time at Richmond to buy a ticket. This is only 5 Min so I'd say would be unreasonable to buy a ticket and interchange in this time.

 

[penaltyfines]

If you cannot get your ticket from Hammersmith, then yes, you can buy your ticket at your destination, provided you leave the minimum connection time at Richmond to buy a ticket. This is only 5 Min so I'd say would be unreasonable to buy a ticket and interchange in this time.

I don't see how minimum connection time comes into the requirement to hold a ticket?

 

[LexyBoy]

If you cannot get your ticket from Hammersmith, then yes, you can buy your ticket at your destination, provided you leave the minimum connection time at Richmond to buy a ticket. This is only 5 Min so I'd say would be unreasonable to buy a ticket and interchange in this time.

I wouldn't do this. You would be entering the NR system at a staffed station without buying a ticket, so liable to a PF I'd say.

 

[penaltyfines]

I wouldn't do this. You would be entering the NR system at a staffed station without buying a ticket, so liable to a PF I'd say.

If the place you start your journey doesn't have ticket issuing facilities to issue the ticket you want to buy, you can travel without a ticket completely, unless or until:

(a) you are approached by a guard
(b) you have ample time at an intermediary station to buy a ticket which has ticket issuing facilities
(c) the destination station has ticket issuing facilities to issue the ticket you want to buy

You don't need to miss a connecting train to buy a ticket if there are ticket issuing facilities at an intermediary station.

 

[MikeWh]

But the journey is from Hammersmith. If you didn't have a ticket at all then you could buy a combined ticket for the whole journey from Hammersmith (or have I got that wrong?). Therefore you are starting your journey at a station which is unable to sell you the ticket required for the journey because you already have part of it.

Having said all that, if you get to Richmond and find you have 15 minutes to wait then you could save a lot of hassle if you did buy the ticket there.

 

[island]

In your shoes I would buy a ticket from St Margarets Ldn, which is 10p more than Boundary Zone 4, just to avoid the palaver.

 

[Mojo]

In your shoes I would buy a ticket from St Margarets Ldn, which is 10p more than Boundary Zone 4, just to avoid the palaver.

Even if a Tube station to issue this ticket you might be hard pushed to find someone who knows how to do it!

 

[penaltyfines]

It's a shame when you have to spend more or go out of your way to avoid issues... although the railway has enough issues it's probably unfair to single this out!

 

[Mojo]

I wouldn't do this. You would be entering the NR system at a staffed station without buying a ticket, so liable to a PF I'd say.

It's irrelevant. The journey started at Hammersmith. Hammersmith doesn't have the facilities to issue the required ticket. Another member on this forum travels from Old Street which is a LU station but with FCC services and has been advise to buy tickets at his destination. What else do you expect people to do?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't see how minimum connection time comes into the requirement to hold a ticket?

It matters because if you don't leave the minimum connection time then your journey will not be valid and in such a circumstance I would expect such an argument as I've detailed to fail.

 

[penaltyfines]

It's irrelevant. The journey started at Hammersmith. Hammersmith doesn't have the facilities to issue the required ticket. Another member on this forum travels from Old Street which is a LU station but with FCC services and has been advise to buy tickets at his destination. What else do you expect people to do?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It matters because if you don't leave the minimum connection time then your journey will not be valid and in such a circumstance I would expect such an argument as I've detailed to fail.

What a load of rubbish! So you're legally barred from joining a connecting train if the connection doesn't meet the minimum connection time?!!!

 

[bnm]

I once made a journey from Patchway (unmanned, un-TVM'd), near Bristol to, funnily enough Bracknell, changing at Bristol Temple Meads and Reading.

Both changes were less than the minimum connection times and I'd had no opportunity to buy a ticket on any of the 3 trains I caught. The first guard on the local service had packed her kit up after Patchway, the next Train Manager on the HST to Reading had a faulty Avantix, and the final guard on the SWT service to Bracknell didn't have an Avantix at all.

I entered a world of pain on arrival at Bracknell; with the gateline staff and a roving RPI refusing to believe I could have travelled as far as I did without the opportunity to purchase a ticket. I explained that I'd made two unofficial connections and was told, in no uncertain terms, that I should've missed one of them to go and buy a ticket. My pointing out that I'd made three attempts to buy a ticket on board fell on deaf ears.

I admit I didn't help my case by initially refusing to give my details, saying only that I would pay the fare I owed and nothing more. BTP were called and after explaining my journey to them I was allowed to purchase my ticket. I was warned that it was not a good idea to refuse to give details, something I was aware of, but I chose not to on this occasion because I'd done nothing wrong as far as I could see. Why should I delay my journey when there is a chance to make quick connections?

After some correspondence with SWT and the involvement of PF I got a full apology for my treatment at Bracknell and a refund and compensation for being held rail-side at Bracknell for over an hour.

 

[dzug2]

Surely the service from Richmond to Bracknell is frequent enough for a missed train while buying the ticket not to matter that much?

 

[b0b]

If you cannot get your ticket from Hammersmith,

They were certainly able to do this at Farringdon, though its probably a much more common request there and so the staff knew how to do it.

I'd buy lots of off peak BZ4 to East Croydon with YP discounts so I could use the fast Thameslink service than the stoppers.

 

[Mojo]

It's not a load of rubbish at all and is just my opinion. You would not be given a valid journey if you don't meet the minimum connection time therefore you cannot argue that by not buying a ticket you did so in order to reach your destination on time. If you have a 3 Min connection or a 33 Min connection then you could buy a ticket. If you had a 5 Min connection then you probably couldn't.

 

[penaltyfines]

I don't see what compels you in the CoC to have a valid 'journey' in terms of connections, the minimum connection times are chiefly for the purpose of planning itineraries (and when connections are missed, can compensation be claimed) and to ensure people have enough time to change at large stations.

As an aside, the RPIs at Bracknell (granted a year or two ago) seem particularly bad. I was travelling from a station where ticket issuing facilities weren't available, changing at Reading - I would just make the connection on to the Bracknell train and then approached the staff up-front at Bracknell asking for a ticket from my original station, explaining the details

After being PFed the first time (appeal unsuccessful, thank you IPFAS!) and travelling on child tickets the next few times to make up the cost (hey, the work the barriers!), if I couldn't buy a ticket at the start of my journey it was necessary to barge through the wide exit gate not buying a ticket and ignore them - rather than risk another PF. Fat chance of the BTP turning up before I get in a taxi! Shame though, but I digress...

 

[SWT_USER]

Thanks for the responses all. It turned out not to matter in the end as when I was walking towards Hammersmith the 220 was at the bus stop so got on it to Putney and got the ticket there (never get on buses unless the one I need is already at the stop).

Mixed responses, although I would feel confident enough to argue my case with an inspector next time.

dzug2 - no, not really I wouldn't be willing to wait up to half an hour for my next service if I had done everything 'by the book'.

 

[yorkie]

Surely the service from Richmond to Bracknell is frequent enough for a missed train while buying the ticket not to matter that much?

That does miss the point though, and is just opinion (no offence), unless frequency is documented somewhere as bearing relevance to this scenario?

However there is a big question for me here, and that is:

Where is the passenger considered to be starting their journey in this case?

If I do this journey:
Walk to bus stop
Bus to York
Train from York ...

The TOCs would consider me to be starting my journey at the station (unless I already had PlusBus maybe...?)

If I do this journey:
Walk to Bury Metrolink station
Tram to Man Vic
Train from Man Vic ...

Would the TOCs consider me to be starting at Bury Metrolink (on the basis that it's former BR?) or Man Vic?

If I do this journey:
Walk to Hammersmith station
LU to Richmond
Train from Richmond ...

Am I now considered to be starting at Hammersmith, or Richmond? Is there a 'concession' for a journey started on LU?

However if I start a journey at a joint LU/National Rail station then, of course, my journey should be considered starting there. But Hammersmith doesn't come under that category.

Before the OP's question can be answered, this pretty fundamental question of where his journey is considered to be starting, needs to be answered.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As an aside, the RPIs at Bracknell (granted a year or two ago) seem particularly bad....

Rather than let them get away with a wrong action, and then carrying out wrong actions to reclaim your money (morally you're probably on a par if the amounts equal, but legally the law is in the favour of the TOCs so you'd be the big loser), I would suggest refusing to pay the penalty fare and fighting them in court. This is less risky than accepting the penalty fare and then risking an almost certain conviction for fare evasion for using child tickets, in my opinion, and also the media would then be on your side (as would many people here). So, if it happens next time, I suggest a different course of action!

 

[MikeWh]

However there is a big question for me here, and that is:

Where is the passenger considered to be starting their journey in this case?

I would say that if you can buy a through ticket for the whole journey from the LU station then that is enough to define it as the start. The fact that LU stations can't issue BZn tickets doesn't make them invalid as the start station when that is what is required.

 

[Daniel]

LUL Ticket Offices, (and not just those with special NR issuing facilities, ALL LU offices), are able to issue boundary zone extensions.

We don't sell "zone" extensions in the normal fashion, we just have NR Journey Extn (Off-Peak)/(Peak), and the fare is looked up in a paper manual and entered manually. The price charge depends on the zonal ticket held by the customer.

 

[transportphoto]

LUL Ticket Offices, (and not just those with special NR issuing facilities, ALL LU offices), are able to issue boundary zone extensions.

We don't sell "zone" extensions in the normal fashion, we just have NR Journey Extn (Off-Peak)/(Peak), and the fare is looked up in a paper manual and entered manually. The price charge depends on the zonal ticket held by the customer.

Would that print a 'to' station? Have you got an example of the actual printed ticket available?

 

[Daniel]

Would that print a 'to' station? Have you got an example of the actual printed ticket available?

The destination does print on the ticket, yes.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of a ticket, sorry.

 

[transportphoto]

The destination does print on the ticket, yes.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of a ticket, sorry.

Thanks - will try, will PM you closer to the day I am in London in April to findout what station you are at on that day - may come and say 'ello I already know I'll need a BZ extension that day.

Don't ask me why I was expecting you to have a copy of the ticket (:roll: me)

 

[Daniel]

Thanks - will try, will PM you closer to the day I am in London in April to findout what station you are at on that day - may come and say 'ello I already know I'll need a BZ extension that day.

No problem - may see you around!

Don't ask me why I was expecting you to have a copy of the ticket (:roll: me)

If I get a ticket office shift I'll issue and non issue one and get a photo.
Wouldn't be the first time I've done that!

 

[penaltyfines]

Rather than let them get away with a wrong action, and then carrying out wrong actions to reclaim your money (morally you're probably on a par if the amounts equal, but legally the law is in the favour of the TOCs so you'd be the big loser), I would suggest refusing to pay the penalty fare and fighting them in court. This is less risky than accepting the penalty fare and then risking an almost certain conviction for fare evasion for using child tickets, in my opinion, and also the media would then be on your side (as would many people here). So, if it happens next time, I suggest a different course of action!

I quite agree with fighting the penalty fare etc, I don't travel that route anymore but I didn't have the time, energy or inclination to argue the case and try and improve SWT's customer service for free whilst wasting my own time/money. The risk was minimal (they'd never see the ticket!) and in the end they lost out of the ticket sales! Really irritating that some RPIs dont know how to do their job though...

 

[LexyBoy]

It's irrelevant. The journey started at Hammersmith. Hammersmith doesn't have the facilities to issue the required ticket. Another member on this forum travels from Old Street which is a LU station but with FCC services and has been advise to buy tickets at his destination. What else do you expect people to do?

I wasn’t aware that LU stations could sell tickets to National Rail destinations outside London. Since it seems that they can, I agree with you!