Greater Anglia 'fine'

[SPADTrap]

On my first trip to London Liverpool street from Colchester town id bought a daily return (while I sorted everything out) unfortunately id bought an off peak return £38 instead of the £48 peak return. When I got to Liverpool street I explained my honest mistake...but got a fine!!

Were you given a Penalty Fare? Or was your use of the word 'fine' actually correct and intended? Don't they have to excess off peak fares to peak? Could have had an appeal there!

 

[Essexwiganer]

I sent in an appeal but the reply was pretty much you bought the wrong ticket ...tough.

 

[Essexwiganer]

On my first trip to London Liverpool street from Colchester town id bought a daily return (while I sorted everything out) unfortunately id bought an off peak return £38 instead of the £48 peak return. When I got to Liverpool street I explained my honest mistake...but got a fine!!

 

[Tetchytyke]

What do you mean by "fine"?

You cannot be given a penalty fare if your ticket is invalid just because of a time restriction (getting on the wrong train with an advance ticket doesn't count).

You can be asked to pay the excess fare to make your ticket valid.

 

[yorkie]

On my first trip to London Liverpool street from Colchester town id bought a daily return (while I sorted everything out) unfortunately id bought an off peak return £38 instead of the £48 peak return. When I got to Liverpool street I explained my honest mistake...but got a fine!!

The correct action is to charge you an excess fare, this should be the difference between the fare paid and the correct fare, which allows the mistake to be rectified without penalty.

If you were charged a Penalty Fare (which is technically not a fine but I can understand how it is perceived to be a fine) that is totally wrong and you need to enlist the assistance of Passenger Focus, people on this forum will also be prepared to help.

How much exactly were you charged?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If it was at Liverpool Street I'd use London Travelwatch, who are a little bit more switched on.

 

[yorkie]

If it was at Liverpool Street I'd use London Travelwatch, who are a little bit more switched on.

You probably could complain to Travelwatch on that basis, and I agree they're better, though the journey commenced at Colchester which is outside their area. Either way, it needs escalating if a Penalty Fare was indeed charged.

 

[najaB]

When I got to Liverpool street I explained my honest mistake...but got a fine!!

How much were you asked to pay?

 

[maniacmartin]

According to an email to me from London Travelwatch asking about problems in the LTW relating to journeys only partially in the area:

Thank you for contacting London TravelWatch. The decision as to whether we, or Passenger Focus, deal with a complaint is based on where the actual problem occurred; if the problem occurred within our remit, then we would take responsibility for the case.

 

[yorkie]

In that case contact London Travelwatch for an incident at Liverpool Street

 

[Essexwiganer]

Thank you for your help. I was asked to pay £57.40 as a penalty. They then will wouldn't let me on the peak train home. I have the evidence including ticket and 'penalty fare notice' (not fine, the wording I put) the total journey was £90+

I will take it up with the suggested parties. Probably too long has passed now.

Thank you again

 

[yorkie]

Thank you for your help. I was asked to pay £57.40 as a penalty. They then will wouldn't let me on the peak train home. I have the evidence including ticket and 'penalty fare notice' (not fine, the wording I put) the total journey was £90+

I will take it up with the suggested parties. Probably too long has passed now.

Thank you again

I'd still contest it! Just tell them the truth - that you didn't realise it was incorrect until now.

If you don't do that, the RPI who incorrectly chargef you will probably continue to incorrectly charge people. And as your case proves, we can't rely on IPFAS/IRCAS to overturn incorrect PFs; they are notoriously incompetent.

Do you still have the rejection letter? Who was it who dealt with your appeal?

PF can't be trusted to accurately describe IPFAS/IRCAS. an accurate description would be more like this:

These bodies handle appeals not necessarily in accordance with guidelines approved by the Department for Transport (DfT). There is a lack of consistency across operators and they cannot be relied upon to uphold appeal cases where an operator has failed to meet the required regulations of the scheme (e.g. if warning notices were not properly displayed or where appropriate discretion has not been used).

 

[bb21]

I am very confused. There is no £38 fare, nor £48 fare. Exactly what ticket did you buy? Was it a Travelcard?

How much exactly is £90+? That may help us work out exactly what we are talking about here.

 

[Haywain]

Sounds like an Off Peak Day Travelcard (£37.00) and an Anytime Day Travelcard (£57.30) to me. If the OP travelled with an invalid Travelcard then the correct thing to do was sell a new one, as they cannot be excessed (and still work at peak times in London). This does however allow a refund to be claimed on the original ticket. The OP was probably also given a Penalty Fare warning leaflet. If this is the case it is difficult to see what any member of railway staff did wrong.

 

[island]

Sounds like an Off Peak Day Travelcard (£37.00) and an Anytime Day Travelcard (£57.30) to me. If the OP travelled with an invalid Travelcard then the correct thing to do was sell a new one, as they cannot be excessed (and still work at peak times in London). This does however allow a refund to be claimed on the original ticket. The OP was probably also given a Penalty Fare warning leaflet. If this is the case it is difficult to see what any member of railway staff did wrong.

I'm guessing £57.40 is a typo or miscalculation of £55.40, double the single fare from Colchester Town to London Terminals.

 

[Essexwiganer]

£34.10 Colchester STNS to LST
PENALTY FARE NOTICE - £57.40
made a journey or entered a compulsory ticket area and you was unable to produce a valid ticket.
Inspector GA1387

I have the letter i sent, the tickets i copied, the penalty notice and maybe (not 100% it might of gone in the bin) the letter i received in reply

 

[jkdd77]

An Anytime Day Single Colchester- London Terminals is £27.70, so I've no idea where the £57.40 comes from.

It sounds like the OP is in a difficult position.

On the one hand, the PF is 100% invalid and not due, but, on the other hand, if it is not paid, he/she will probably be prosecuted under byelaw 18, and end up paying far more.

The Penalty Fares Rules state:

7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

There is nothing in the PF Rules providing that the above rule does not apply simply because the ticket cannot be excessed.

It wouldn't be the first time a TOC has incorrectly charged a PF to passengers for travelling on an otherwise valid time or or route-restricted ticket, knowing that there is no truly independent appeals system (IPFAS/IRCAS are not fully independent), and knowing that the passenger is 'over the barrel' and left with little choice but to pay the ransom demanded.

I agree that contacting London Travelwatch would be a good start, however.

 

[Haywain]

It wouldn't be the first time a TOC has incorrectly charged a PF to passengers for travelling on an otherwise valid time or or route-restricted ticket, knowing that there is no truly independent appeals system (IPFAS/IRCAS are not fully independent), and knowing that the passenger is 'over the barrel' and left with little choice but to pay the ransom demanded.

But it is completely ridiculous to suggest that the PF was issued on that basis. It would be more reasonable to say it was an error, just as the OP's use of an invalid ticket was an error.

 

[jkdd77]

But it is completely ridiculous to suggest that the PF was issued on that basis. It would be more reasonable to say it was an error, just as the OP's use of an invalid ticket was an error.

The evidence that at least some TOCs are knowingly and wilfully issuing invalid PFs is very strong: http://www.courier.co.uk/Medway-commuters-given-penalty-fares-HS1/story-12016632-detail/story.html

However, I do not think that it is helpful to the OP to go down this tangent.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It wouldn't be the first time that the RPIs at Liverpool Street have made such a basic error, and it won't be the last.

What concerns me is that the "independent appeals body" are unable to tell their backside from their elbow either.

Unless Haywain's suspicions at the OP being sold a new travelcard are correct (and that's not the right way to do it either).

 

[Haywain]

The evidence that at least some TOCs are knowingly and wilfully issuing invalid PFs is very strong: http://www.courier.co.uk/Medway-commuters-given-penalty-fares-HS1/story-12016632-detail/story.html

One instance on one day at one location hardly provides evidence of "some TOCs are knowingly and wilfully issuing invalid PFs". As you have based this on a report in a local newspaper it struggles to provide solid evidence of one RPI at one TOC doing so. After all, how much is a penalty fare? I don't believe it is £25.00.

 

[MikeWh]

After all, how much is a penalty fare? I don't believe it is £25.00.

It is when the single fare involved is £12.50. The full wording is £20 or twice the full single fare whichever is greater.

 

[Haywain]

It is when the single fare involved is £12.50. The full wording is £20 or twice the full single fare whichever is greater.

Which firmly makes it a single instance*. Thanks for the confirmation.

*Although there doesn't appear to be a journey to St Pancras on HS1 that has a single fare of £12.50, so my point about the penalty fare inaccuracy still stands.

 

[Essexwiganer]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pVo-XnRq8bTjFIeENTTTF5blE/view?usp=sharingThis is the notice
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BTW unless the train hit 88mph on the way Im not sure how I managed to get back to 8:25 when I arrived at 9:25