Future of Main line steam

[Spam Can]

With the latest failure of Tornado & subsequent cancelled rosters its made me think how many Locos with Main line certificates are currently unable to perform for one reason or another and how many are therefore having to step up and fulfill more & more trains and therefore be worked much harder over more & more miles subsequently shortening there usable/current operating status.
At present we have 24 Main line steam loco's (give or take) with certificate for main line running (inc the 2 GWR Panniers) At present 9 of those ar'nt useable and a futher 9 are having to fill the gaps besides fullfilling there own rosoterd turns.
How much longer can this go on? Most Black 5's, A4's & Stanier Pacifics are 75-80 years old. So is Scots Guardsman, "Mount Edgecombe" & the K4.
I personally want to enjoy these and others for as long as possible on the national network so is it time to drasticaly cut back on the amount of trains & tours each loco is asked to perform over any 12 month period.
We're weeks away from the main summer period with the ever increasing pressure of the tourist orientated trains from the 4 corners of the country asking even more of what is at present a depleted amount of available locos.
So...is it time to step back, re-think and do what our glorious movement set out to do in the 1st place and PRESERVE these fabulous machines so other generations can enjoy what I sometimes think we take for granted (Rant over)!!

 

[eastwestdivide]

Depends a bit on what you mean by "preserve" in your last line - there's a range of options from stuffed and mounted to flogged to death every summer.
But you're right in the sense that demand and availability don't seem to match very well.

Wasn't one of the justifications for building Tornado the increasing age/decreasing number of usable main line certified steam locos?

 

[Spam Can]

Your most likely right about Tornado. Makes one wonder what state the new-build Patriot and Grange will be in after 5 years on Main line work.

 

[broadgage]

The recent failure of Tornado is not IMHO an argument against new build steam.
Air pumps do not have a wonderful record of reliability and it would appear that the loco entered service with one out of the two faulty.
I suspect that they wont do that again !
And if starting with two working air pumps does not give sufficient reliability, a backup diesel or electric compressor in the support coach seems feasible, as was suggested in the other thread.

As regards preserved steam on the main line, does running say 5,000 miles a year actually cause much more wear than 1,000 miles ?
Boiler overhauls are mainly calendar time related, not miles run.
Boiler wear is said to be partly the number of heating/cooling cycles rather than miles run, so keeping an engine in steam for some days and running it every day might actually be better than a short trip on 6 days a year.

Tyre wear is mileage related, but there is no point in preserving the tyres since they wont be original in any case.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

With the latest failure of Tornado & subsequent cancelled rosters its made me think how many Locos with Main line certificates are currently unable to perform for one reason or another and how many are therefore having to step up and fulfill more & more trains and therefore be worked much harder over more & more miles subsequently shortening there usable/current operating status.
At present we have 24 Main line steam loco's (give or take) with certificate for main line running (inc the 2 GWR Panniers) At present 9 of those ar'nt useable and a futher 9 are having to fill the gaps besides fullfilling there own rosoterd turns.
How much longer can this go on? Most Black 5's, A4's & Stanier Pacifics are 75-80 years old. So is Scots Guardsman, "Mount Edgecombe" & the K4.
I personally want to enjoy these and others for as long as possible on the national network so is it time to drasticaly cut back on the amount of trains & tours each loco is asked to perform over any 12 month period.
We're weeks away from the main summer period with the ever increasing pressure of the tourist orientated trains from the 4 corners of the country asking even more of what is at present a depleted amount of available locos.
So...is it time to step back, re-think and do what our glorious movement set out to do in the 1st place and PRESERVE these fabulous machines so other generations can enjoy what I sometimes think we take for granted (Rant over)!!

Yes I love going on the main line steam charters, but I do know what you mean, there are sometimes a lot of main line steam tours all "Bunched" together, these must in some ways dilute the market. For example some summer Sundays from Bristol there are 2 steamers, one going off to Weymouth and the other to Kingswear on the same day. It would perhaps be a good idea if the tour promoters could all speak with each other and maybe agree to operate these on alternate weekends, same thing may apply for other areas too. Spread it out a bit to avoid congestion and maybe this would mean that there were spare locos that could be called upon in case of failures.

 

[Waddon]

I think the issue in a few years time is going to be availability of coaches rather than locomotives. How much longer can MK1's keep running at speed on the modern mainline, assuming a finite number of spares and new stricter regulation? I doubt there would be as much appeal being towed behind a loco on a railtour if you're in a MKIII or IV. Unless of course some multi-millionaire pays for a complete new build set...

 

[Teaboy1]

As much as I would hate to see the end of mainline steam, I have to agree that something must be done to prevent a re-occurance of the Rhyl incident. Most easy answer is to always run with a diesel attached to back as insurance. Not pretty but it will mitigate any further problems. Otherwise the support coach needs a diesel genset and air compressor fitting to allow use of Mk2's etc.
By there very nature steamers are always going to be a bit lest reliable than modern stuff, just make sure the basics are covered and dont skimp on finer details. Nothing wrong with the way things are at the moment so ...keep calm & carry on !!

 

[broadgage]

Agree, IMHO main line steam has a future but more attention needs to be given to reliability.

Whilst attaching a diesel gives some insurance, it adds weight and the diesel itself has been known to be the cause of delay.

Presuming air braked stock as is now almost universal, a standby source of air seems desireable, either a second air pump on the loco, or an assisting loco, or a modern compressor in the support coach.

The other main causes of delay seem to be over-optimisim as to what loads can be taken up inclines, and running short of water or coal.
It would appear worth while to have water available on a standby basis en-route. In urban areas sufficient fire hose to reach a hydrant should suffice (and permission to use the water)
For a modest fee, a local coal merchant could have a van full of coal available on a few minutes notice at a suitable place en route. House coal will do, though steam coal is prefered. A loco may be easily coaled in an emergency by simply opening sacks and dropping coal into the tender from an overbridge (not ideal as some of it breaks into small pieces, but it can be done)
In some cases there might be a case for double heading with two preserved steamers. This doubles the hire costs, but by no means doubles all the other costs. A longer train could be worked, each loco should have a working air pump, only one path need be arranged and paid for, providing coal and water would be cheaper, and so on.
Any failure of one loco should still leave the train able to proceed even at much reduced performance which is better than a complete stoppage.

 

[Spam Can]

I think the issue in a few years time is going to be availability of coaches rather than locomotives. How much longer can MK1's keep running at speed on the modern mainline, assuming a finite number of spares and new stricter regulation? I doubt there would be as much appeal being towed behind a loco on a railtour if you're in a MKIII or IV. Unless of course some multi-millionaire pays for a complete new build set...

Never thought about coaching stock but of coarse, your quite right. I know for instance that wcr had to dispatch engineers last summer for remedial work on the set used on the Jacobite.
Wonder how many Mk 1's are lingering on preserved railways (sorry cant get used to calling them "Heritage lines") awaiting finance and the volanteers to actualy do them up. If the answer is to many could they not be sold to the likes of Wcr who have the finances and recorses t restore them to main line worthiness.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Tornado's failure does not represent the problem with steam generally, Tornado is practically new, the air pump is a modern design. Most of our mainline steam is, however, very old indeed and we have to make some difficult decisions about how much longer we continue to use it to haul excursions. In any case, the increasingly strict regulations on NR's tracks are, eventually, going to preclude the use of original specification steam. Continuing to modify old locos for mainline use will have to stop somewhere. New builds like Tornado are the future of mainline steam, fortunately there are quite a lot of these underway.
Tornado's problems (this is not the first) have more to do with our having lost many of the skills required to design, build and maintain steam locos. Hopefully the experience of building more new locos will help to re-establish our ability to make them reliable.

 

[bronzeonion]

Do any railtours run Vacuum braked these days? Even steam these days is air braked!

 

[Phil6219]

Do any railtours run Vacuum braked these days? Even steam these days is air braked!

Yes, a fair few actually.

Anyone remember last year when the WCRC 47s failed on a level crossing and couldn't be rescued as they were on a Vac Rake? (or something along those lines).

The Tin Bath a few weeks ago was Vac too though both Black 5s were connected to each other with both Vac and Air as the Air was used for some form of control purposes (I'm not sure what exactly as I stick to working on Diesels).

There are actually quite a few less Steam tours this year, especially though Wigan

Phil

 

[E&W Lucas]

The Tin Bath a few weeks ago was Vac too though both Black 5s were connected to each other with both Vac and Air as the Air was used for some form of control purposes (I'm not sure what exactly as I stick to working on Diesels).

Riley's locos? TPWS operated off the air system IIRC.

 

[Phil6219]

Aye that's it, couldn't remember off the top of my head.

Phil

 

[D1009]

Most of our mainline steam is, however, very old indeed and we have to make some difficult decisions about how much longer we continue to use it to haul excursions. In any case, the increasingly strict regulations on NR's tracks are, eventually, going to preclude the use of original specification steam. Continuing to modify old locos for mainline use will have to stop somewhere. New builds like Tornado are the future of mainline steam, fortunately there are quite a lot of these underway.

Whilst the preserved steam locos are technically very old, the very nature of steam loco overhauls means that most of the critical components are in fact not very old.

 

[Teaboy1]

Quote TT "New builds like Tornado are the future of mainline steam, fortunately there are quite a lot of these underway."

WHat are underway ?? Only standard gauge I know of is BR Standard Clan Pacific Hagrid or Herrod .... ??? Cannot quite remember its name but dont believe there are anymore 100%new builds in the pipeline. Anyone?

Dont forget either that a steamer can limp on for ages (except for brakes naturally) remember Oliver Cromwell has a loose piston-head on last years Lincoln Poacher. It was knocking somewhere around Kirk Sandall and made it to Cleethorpes before it gave up!!

Like I said, stick to basics (coal, water, professional drivers, proper maintenance) dont take risks with tight schedules and dont upset NR .... and we should be able to co-exist quite happily. Always run loaded tests and do things by the old book and we should be OK.

 

[D1009]

WHat are underway ?? Only standard gauge I know of is BR Standard Clan Pacific Hagrid or Herrod .... ??? Cannot quite remember its name but dont believe there are anymore 100%new builds in the pipeline. Anyone?

It's 72010 Hengist. There's also 6880 Betton Grange which I believe is nearer completion, though not sure whether it is intended to run on the main line. I doubt whether any are truly 100% new build.

 

[Teaboy1]

Hengist, thats the one ! I should know better as he [the King] is/was reputedly buried near to where I grew up , tumulus near Melton Rd, Sprotbrough.

So apart from Tornado and Cromwell, any other notable failures ?? We all know they need water and coal but apart from that, what / when & where did anything else give up??

 

[NightStar]

Another thing that should be considered is the use of additional water tenders? Here in the USA we use water tenders on mainline steam locos all the time. One reason is the lack of places to take water. Two is because the use of a water tender allows the locomotive to run greater distances since the water consumed is twice the coal consumed. Most steamers are oiled and greased after about 150 miles I believe it is for some large late build 4-8-4 Northerns?

Anyone know what happened to this unfinished water tender???

http://www.dukeofgloucester.co.uk/?section=locomotive&page=Water+Tender+Project

I really would like to know what became of this project?

Robert

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Another thing that should be considered is the use of additional water tenders? Here in the USA we use water tenders on mainline steam locos all the time. One reason is the lack of places to take water. Two is because the use of a water tender allows the locomotive to run greater distances since the water consumed is twice the coal consumed. Most steamers are oiled and greased after about 150 miles I believe it is for some large late build 4-8-4 Northerns?

Anyone know what happened to this unfinished water tender???

http://www.dukeofgloucester.co.uk/?section=locomotive&page=Water+Tender+Project

I really would like to know what became of this project?

Robert

I think that they did build a water tender for the GWR loco King Edward 1 quite recently to help with main line running, but I don't know what happened to that. It is a sensible idea. I think Bittern or Sir Nigel may also have a second LNER tender too and I am sure ran with one of those on the main line a year or two ago.

I think that it would be sensible too for all main line trains to have a diesel loco attached at the back in case of difficulties. I know it does does look so attractive, but if it eases problems, then perhaps it should be done.

Sometimes the steam crew can do an on the spot repair, that happened when I was on travelling with Tornado to Kingswear at the end of March, an air pipe I think, had failed and they were able to do a repair in the platform at Slough, other trains were diverted onto other tracks around us and although we left there over an hour late, we got to Paington 15 minutes earlier thanks to some good running and help from NR.

 

[Spam Can]

(Reply to "Teaboy")Scots Guardsman doe'snt seem to able to travel more than 15-20 miles before giving up!
(reliably informed it has uneven tyre wear due to middle driving wheels being very slightly "out"-a problem it has suffered from most of its working life)
Duke of Gloucester failed last autumn. Tangmere has been back to Carnforth twice in 2 years for remedial work after failing 2-3 times in 2011. Braunton cant even get on to the main line due to problems-mainly brakes so I believe.
The Duchess and 5029 have both had problems this year and have had to withdrawn from certain rosters, (altough both booked for main line roles in May & June) and did'nt "Gresley" either fail or had to be withdrawn because of problems? (now fixed).

 

[LE Greys]

I think that they did build a water tender for the GWR loco King Edward 1 quite recently to help with main line running, but I don't know what happened to that. It is a sensible idea. I think Bittern or Sir Nigel may also have a second LNER tender too and I am sure ran with one of those on the main line a year or two ago.

I believe that the KEI canteen is regularly used behind other Great Western locomotives, including on a recreation of the non-stop Cheltenham Flyer behind Earl of Mount Edgcumbe this year. Bittern's canteen is almost featured on my avatar, it used to belong to Flying Scotsman, and started life as a standard Gresley corridor tender, until Alan Peglar bought it and had the coal bunker replaced with a larger tank. I hope that we see a few more canteens in the future, preferably disguised as BGs.