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Future crossrails in London?

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swt_passenger

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However it does lead to the question, could it be better to have fewer stations along such a deep line? In that if it's going to take (say) up to 5 minutes from ground level to departure on the next train and then a few more minutes back up again then the time saving over walking 1.5km is going to be fairly small.
Isn’t the idea that the secondary entrances to the central area Crossrail stations fill apparent gaps in the existing network? Eg Dean St or Hanover Square which can be thought of as avoiding changing onto the Central Line for short one stop journeys to somewhere such as Oxford Circus? I’ve wondered before if their respective surface entrances should be named differently to the other end, and appear on the tube map as well.
 
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Bald Rick

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I'm still not sure that you are understanding the sort of system which is being talked about, this video should help...

It is possible for each shaft pair to have more than one vehicle loading/unloading at each end at once though....

I know all this and understand it very well!!!!!

I don’t know if you’ve been on high capacity gondolas in ski resorts, but the loading / unloading principle is much the same, except they are moving at about 0.3m/s. Two (or even three) loading concurrently. The critical constraint is that loading time - getting people through the doors, getting the doors closed, locked (and confirmed so), and getting the cabin up from loading speed to ‘cruising’ speed. Then the opposite at the other end, with unloading in a different place. Conceptually the operation is the same, but with a different technology for moving the cabin.

Let’s not also forget that the technology proposed by Thyssen is very very expensive, because of the linear induction motors.

Very deep railways in London are not going to happen.
 

The Ham

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I know all this and understand it very well!!!!!

I don’t know if you’ve been on high capacity gondolas in ski resorts, but the loading / unloading principle is much the same, except they are moving at about 0.3m/s. Two (or even three) loading concurrently. The critical constraint is that loading time - getting people through the doors, getting the doors closed, locked (and confirmed so), and getting the cabin up from loading speed to ‘cruising’ speed. Then the opposite at the other end, with unloading in a different place. Conceptually the operation is the same, but with a different technology for moving the cabin.

Let’s not also forget that the technology proposed by Thyssen is very very expensive, because of the linear induction motors.

Very deep railways in London are not going to happen.

I've been on gondolas in the Alps, basically they keep moving just at a much lower speed than when they are going along the main cable car runs.

The difference with the system that I'm proposing is that they would go offline from the main moving system and be able to be parked in a platform.

As such rather than it being a through platform, like you see at a lot of railway stations, it would be like that of a terminus station with bay platforms which it would move in and out of separate to any loading/unloading process. This would allow a car to be stopped for (say) 20 minutes to deal with someone having a medical emergency without impacting too much on the rest of the system.

It could allow the number of lift cars to be altered during the day depending on usage demand as they could be moved offline to a holding area and back again as demand drops and rises again.

Yes linear induction motors are very expensive, but then so were personal computers not that long ago (my parents first home desktop PC cost £1,000 about 25 years ago, now lots of laptops are less than that and inflation has devalued what you can get for your money. Likewise smartphones, I didn't have one until about 5 years ago due to the cost of them and running them, now it's hard not to have one). Given that we are taking about a line which is likely to be built at least in the late 2030's (at least 15 years away, maybe even beyond 20 years) chances are that the cost of such technology will have come down in price.

I often think that people forget about the potential timelines when taking about when things will happen and view things with what's likely now. For instance there's likely to be 10.3 million people in London in 2040 (+1.33 million Vs 2018) with growth within the South East adding to this pressure. As such, even without any changes in how people move about due to climate change, there's likely to be pressure for more public transport within London, given that the traditional methods of construction are likely to be difficult or not possible then something different could happen. It may not happen before 2060, but that doesn't mean that it won't happen.

For instance it's likely that once Crossrail 2 is built (and it's likely that it will get built, but it may not be within the expected timeline of early 2030's, see Thameslink 2000) that there'd be a jump in rail usage along the SWML. Possibly to the extent that there'll be a need to start considering the next rail upgrade, even though there'd be a significant increase in capacity from the extra 8tph from Waterloo.

You also have to consider that digging 80m long shafts isn't cheap and so if you can reduce the number of shafts needed the cost savings could be enough to justify the extra costs of the technology.

Of course it could be that there's a middle ground where you use a hybrid system so as to reduce the amount of distance for which the linear induction motors are used. For instance only using them for the movements at the top/bottom of the system. This could also bring the costs of the system down, although it could also limit the capacity of the up/down shafts.
 

HSTEd

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I know all this and understand it very well!!!!!

I don’t know if you’ve been on high capacity gondolas in ski resorts, but the loading / unloading principle is much the same, except they are moving at about 0.3m/s. Two (or even three) loading concurrently. The critical constraint is that loading time - getting people through the doors, getting the doors closed, locked (and confirmed so), and getting the cabin up from loading speed to ‘cruising’ speed. Then the opposite at the other end, with unloading in a different place. Conceptually the operation is the same, but with a different technology for moving the cabin.

This technology has a critical difference from ski lifts in that loading operations occur fully in parallel.
This is more like a railway line.

Every 15 seconds cabin arrives at alternating loading positions.
This is like saying because it takes more than three minutes to turn the trains around, HS2 can't possibly achieve 18 trains per hour.
Let’s not also forget that the technology proposed by Thyssen is very very expensive, because of the linear induction motors.
This project will cost many billions of pounds, a few tens of millions for linear induction motors is not expensive.
 

Bald Rick

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Yes linear induction motors are very expensive, but then so were personal computers not that long ago (my parents first home desktop PC cost £1,000 about 25 years ago, now lots of laptops are less than that and inflation has devalued what you can get for your money. Likewise smartphones

The difference is that there is a huge market (billions) for laptops and smart phones, and small unit production costs ($50-200). There’s not a big market for LIMs (and never will be) whilst the unit cost won’t come down dramatically. I first went on a vehicle powered by a LIM 35 years ago, (and most recently last month) - they are a relatively mature technology, and certainly older than smartphones!

This technology has a critical difference from ski lifts in that loading operations occur fully in parallel.
This is more like a railway line.

Just like the detachable gondolas I was referring to that load 2 or 3 cabins at a time.

This project will cost many billions of pounds, a few tens of millions for linear induction motors is not expensive.

Fair point, although when you need a lot of them at each station, and at several stations, it quickly adds up. Besides it’s not so much the LIMs themselves, as all the tunnelling and (importantly) the land topside where you need the access for passengers to get to/from the lifts.
 

JKF

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If these lifts move sideways, why not use them to serve multiple destinations (entrances) around station sites and relieve crowding in a central vestibule area? Also why not site entrances at different points along the platform, with the capsules going up, along a track and then up a central core lift shaft?
 

PartyOperator

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London is full of parks so that's one option for stations. It would be disruptive but not permanently. You could link a bunch of them up - say, Clapham Common, Battersea Park, Hyde Park, Regents Park, Hampstead Heath for a nice alternative to the Northern Line. I'm sure the locals would be happy.

The cheapest way to add a massive amount of transport capacity would be banning most private motor vehicles (including taxis and delivery vehicles) from central London at peak hours. Busses, bicycles and pedestrians all use road space much more efficiently.

Edit: another option is putting current long-distance trains into tunnels (which only need one station in the centre of the city), freeing up the surface lines for metro-style services.
 
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