FIXED PENALTY NOTICE for recently expired Railcard

[nickc97]

Hello everyone.

My Railcard expired on the 20th (I was abroad in Ireland for that weekend, I can provide proof) and on my way back home to Manchester (Man Airport -> Man Picadilly),one of the Northern members asked to see my Railcard, and that's when I realised it had expired two days ago. I didn't receive a notification that my Railcard had expired so I offered to renew it on the spot (which I did!). The officer however insisted on writing a report and advised that I can send my renewed Railcard details to Northern once I receive a letter from them and that there would be no consequences as long as I can provide this.
This was an honest mistake (I was abroad and had not realised my Railcard had expired) and I did not plan to deceive or travel with an invalid Railcard. The only trip I unintentionally travelled on with an expired Railcard was Manchester Airport to Manchester Picadilly, after which I renewed my Railcard while at the station before exiting the gate (while the officer was writing his report).

I sent northern an email once I receive the first report from them (a letter), and today I just received a fixed penalty notice. Obviously I am not happy as this is not what I was told by their officer at Piccadilly. The fixed penalty is for £100 plus £6.50 for the fare. Reason is "you travelled from Manchester airport to Manchester Picadilly without paying the correct fair".

The letter is threatening that if I don't pay the amount now it'll go to court and I'll need to pay additional £150 and I'll receive a criminal conviction. The letter also mentions nothing about appeal.

Can someone please advise on how I can appeal (and if I can appeal with the above information)? I've never had to pay any penalties before and this was an honest mistake. Reference starts with NTLTIR

Thank you for any help, I've started panicking about this.

Further info: I sent an email to the address of the initial correspondence to explain the situation but never heard back from them!

 

[ikcdab]

Train staff will often tell you things to avoid seroius conflict. In this case what you were told was not correct.
You travelled without a valid Railcard and that is an offence for which you have received a penalty. There is no such thing as an "honest mistake" in law. You were negligent in not realising your Railcard had expired.
You have no grounds for appeal at all. You are lucky that you have been offered a settlement: if you pay this then the matter is then closed.
Your only realistic course of action is to pay the penalty and move on.

 

[John R]

You might want to take down the letter and repost it with your name redacted.

 

[nickc97]

You might want to take down the letter and repost it with your name redacted.

Good catch, thank you very much for spotting it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You were negligent in not realising your Railcard had expired.
You have no grounds for appeal at all. You are lucky that you have been offered a settlement: if you pay this then the matter is then closed.
Your only realistic course of action is to pay the penalty and move on.

Concur with @ikcdab. One to chalk up to experience?

Maybe also @nickc97 can set up an auto-reminder for mid August next year so as to remind themselves that their replacement railcard is about to expire.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately there is no formal appeal process for this sort of thing. This isn’t a Penalty Fare but rather a (very specious) fixed penalty demanded under different circumstances. The facts are that regrettably you did commit the offence and paying the notice will ensure you are not prosecuted for it.

 

[nickc97]

Unfortunately there is no formal appeal process for this sort of thing. This isn’t a Penalty Fare but rather a (very specious) fixed penalty demanded under different circumstances. The facts are that regrettably you did commit the offence and paying the notice will ensure you are not prosecuted for it.

Thank you, appreciate the response. Lesson learnt.

 

[some bloke]

Hang on! No need to pay yet as the deadline is some days away.

The letter is threatening that if I don't pay the amount now it'll go to court

It says "Failure to respond or pay".

The document may be consistent with them not having read your email, as they don't mention it.

One option is to email politely that you are willing to pay but would like to clarify something first - whether they received your email, as you have received no acknowledgement.

Technically they can get you convicted, so this would be at your own risk. But we might like to think they wouldn't go straight to prosecution as a result of you responding within 14 days as they suggested.

What exactly did you write in the first email? DId you give evidence of a past history of continuous railcard purchases?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2024 ==

If you write to them, you could include information as well as a request for clarification and your earlier email. You could post a draft on here.

 

[Hadders]

Hang on! No need to pay yet as the deadline is some days away.


It says "Failure to respond or pay".

The document may be consistent with them not having read your email, as they don't mention it.

One option is to email politely that you are willing to pay but would like to clarify something first - whether they received your email, as you have received no acknowledgement.

Technically they can get you convicted, so this would be at your own risk. But we might like to think they wouldn't go straight to prosecution as a result of you responding within 14 days as they suggested.

What exactly did you write in the first email? DId you give evidence of a past history of continuous railcard purchases?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2024 ==

If you write to them, you could include information as well as a request for clarification and your earlier email. You could post a draft on here.

I would not recommend this course of action because there is a risk that Northern could withdraw their settlement offer and send the case to the Magistrates Court.

The whole case is unfortunate and I'm sure @nickc97 is frustrates and 'kicking themselves'. My view is the best thing is pay up to make the matter go away and chalk it up to experience. Think of it in the same way you would think about a parking ticket or speeding ticket, it's just one of those things.

 

[some bloke]

I would not recommend this course of action because there is a risk that Northern could withdraw their settlement offer and send the case to the Magistrates Court.

The letter says "You will not be liable to conviction" if they pay during the 14 days.

Is that not a promise in effect that if @nickc97 emails asking if the first email was received, or otherwise "responds" as Northern suggest, and Northern won't budge, they can still pay by the deadline and avoid prosecution?

 

[Hadders]

The letter says "You will not be liable to conviction" if they pay during the 14 days.

Is that not a promise in effect that if @nickc97 emails asking if the first email was received, or otherwise "responds" as Northern suggest, and Northern won't budge, they can still pay by the deadline and avoid prosecution?

Personally, I wouldn't want to put that to the test with a company like Northern. Once the matter is settled it might be worth contacting customer services to see if they will consider doing anything.

 

[some bloke]

Personally, I wouldn't want to put that to the test with a company like Northern. Once the matter is settled it might be worth contacting customer services to see if they will consider doing anything.

There's another option beside putting it to the test. Is it risky even to ask Northern what they meant by those words in the promise?

Understood about paying then complaining. One problem with Northern's letter in addition to the strange reference to a "Fixed Penalty Notice" is the misleading idea that magistrates have discretion to send people to prison under the 1889 Act, without mentioning that it could only apply to second/subsequent offence (and discretion is limited by sentencing guidelines). Unimpressive especially given that they have recently admitted to prosecuting thousands through the wrong route and hundreds (we think likely many thousands more will emerge) for an offence they couldn't have committed!

 

[ikcdab]

Hang on! No need to pay yet as the deadline is some days away.


It says "Failure to respond or pay".

The document may be consistent with them not having read your email, as they don't mention it.

One option is to email politely that you are willing to pay but would like to clarify something first - whether they received your email, as you have received no acknowledgement.

Technically they can get you convicted, so this would be at your own risk. But we might like to think they wouldn't go straight to prosecution as a result of you responding within 14 days as they suggested.

What exactly did you write in the first email? DId you give evidence of a past history of continuous railcard purchases?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2024 ==

If you write to them, you could include information as well as a request for clarification and your earlier email. You could post a draft on here.

This is a high-risk strategy. Northern have many of these cases to deal with and there is a high chance of your email getting lost and the next thing you know is you get a court summons. That is far more difficult to sort out. Whilst I know that £106 can be a lot of money to some people, in the whole scheme of things its a trivial sum and by not paying you risk far higher costs. The best advice is to pay the penalty. You may ask Northern after that if they might consider some form of goodwill payback, but as there really no special circumstances here at all, I doubt you will get anything.

 

[Hadders]

There's another option beside putting it to the test. Is it risky even to ask Northern what they meant by those words in the promise?

Understood about paying then complaining. One problem with Northern's letter in addition to the strange reference to a "Fixed Penalty Notice" is the misleading idea that magistrates have discretion to send people to prison under the 1889 Act, without mentioning that it could only apply to second/subsequent offence (and discretion is limited by sentencing guidelines). Unimpressive especially given that they have recently admitted to prosecuting thousands through the wrong route and hundreds (we think likely many thousands more will emerge) for an offence they couldn't have committed!

I think anything other than paying the sum requested carries risk. It is for the OP to decide what level of risk they are prepared to take but in my experience most people seeking our help want the matter to go away. Only a tiny number of people want to risk a court case, if it can be avoided.

This is a high-risk strategy. Northern have many of these cases to deal with and there is a high chance of your email getting lost and the next thing you know is you get a court summons. That is far more difficult to sort out. Whilst I know that £106 can be a lot of money to some people, in the whole scheme of things its a trivial sum and by not paying you risk far higher costs. The best advice is to pay the penalty. You may ask Northern after that if they might consider some form of goodwill payback, but as there really no special circumstances here at all, I doubt you will get anything.

I agree with this.

I think we're starting to drift away from helping the OP with their specific case into areas of theoretical possibilities which is best done in a separate thread.