FCC "Thameslink" Services On Weekends

[reb0118]

I was in London recently (30/07/10) and ended up at London Bridge hoping to catch the FCC service to St. Pancras, however it was a Saturday, & when I asked the booking clerk when the next service was he informed me that FCC often don't run at the weekends between London Bridge & St.Pancras and advised taking the tube. I showed the clerk my First Group Train Pass & asked if that would be valid (more in hope than expectation) and was told to "blag it" at the gates as "you'll be fine". I know that "you'll be fine" can quickly change to "£20 fine"

So I have the following questions:-

1) Are there no scheduled services via Thameslink on the weekends or are they just temporarily suspended due to engineering works? Which brings me on to......

2) If they are just suspended does the tube accept FCC tickets & passes? (My pass is not specifically for FCC but First Group trains in general), and..

3) If the tube does not accept the above what help, if any, does FCC offer for passengers in that situation?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

1) It is only while the engineering is ongoing.

2) There are usually notices saying that the tube will accept tickets on any reasonable route to bypass the closure, but they don't seem to specify the routes!

2a) Not sure how this relates to staff passes, though!

3) No idea.

 

[reb0118]

1) It is only while the engineering is ongoing.

2) There are usually notices saying that the tube will accept tickets on any reasonable route to bypass the closure, but they don't seem to specify the routes!

2a) Not sure how this relates to staff passes, though!

3) No idea.

Thanks for quick answer. I'll contact FCC direct re 2a). It is my belief that a staff pass is also a valid ticket (used correctly within the rules) however I have come across a few problems using one during engineering works eg on a Virgin train (that was accepting other operators tickets due to short notice of the said works inc tickets marked TPE only) I was informed that my pass was not valid by the Guard as there was no proof that my original planned journey had been disrupted.

 

[bnm]

Being told to 'blag it' by the booking clerk would be a direction from a railway employee would it not? Therefore you shouldn't be charged a penalty fare - or strong grounds for appeal.

 

[MikeWh]

What I do know is that Oyster users get a raw deal. If you use the Thameslink route and other NR lines then you will only get charged the appropriate NR fare, but at weekends you get charged the U1 surcharge on top because you have to touch in and out of the Northern line.

 

[causton]

What I do know is that Oyster users get a raw deal. If you use the Thameslink route and other NR lines then you will only get charged the appropriate NR fare, but at weekends you get charged the U1 surcharge on top because you have to touch in and out of the Northern line.

I believe that the two stations where you will have to touch out and back in again are part of an OSI (Out of Station Interchange) where only a single fare will be charged despite touching out. (see here)

Edit: Did I just refer you to your OWN site?

 

[reb0118]

What I do know is that Oyster users get a raw deal. If you use the Thameslink route and other NR lines then you will only get charged the appropriate NR fare, but at weekends you get charged the U1 surcharge on top because you have to touch in and out of the Northern line.

I'm still trying to get my head round Oyster. I got my card online prior to travelling and convinced my companion to pick one up in London. We are both TOCNE rail staff with free passes for first group. My plan was to use Oyster on the tube/buses, the free pass on the FCC "thameslink", & buy privs on other NR services as required. I therefore did not think it worthwhile to load day travel cards onto Oyster but to PAYG instead. On day one my companion left his passes in the hotel as he thought he did not need them after me telling him to always take your passes. I found this out at London Bridge when we attempted to pass the barrier onto the FCC service. On day two even though he brought his passes he used Oyster to pass barriers on to NR services then did not check out as the gate was either open or that journey was free to us - I think he lost all his credit on the card for journeys that should have cost no more than £1.20. On day three as he left only seven minutes to get from the hotel to our train home he did not have time to hand back his Oyster card to get his £3.00 deposit back, and yes it's all my fault. I think I paid less than £7.00 for two full days travel across London but my friend was over £15 - ouch.

With regard to your above comment though. Is it still possible to buy a "paper" ticket route Thameslink only at the appropriate NR fare as this would have to be accepted on the alternative route due to engineering works?

 

[John @ home]

I therefore did not think it worthwhile to load day travel cards onto Oyster but to PAYG instead.

You can't load a Day Travelcard onto Oyster, only weekly or longer. Instead, the daily charge is capped at the appropriate peak or off-peak Day Travelcard price if (and only if) you have remembered to touch in and out correctly. For more on Oyster see MikeWh's excellent site here.

Is it still possible to buy a "paper" ticket route Thameslink only at the appropriate NR fare as this would have to be accepted on the alternative route due to engineering works?

For some journeys, yes. But it's not usually the cheapest option. For example, one of my frequent journeys is St Pancras to East Croydon. When Thameslink is operating, a Zone 1-5 Off-Peak Oyster PAYG single costs me £2.60. When it's not operating, an Off-Peak Zone 1 tube journey to Victoria followed by a train to East Croydon using Oyster PAYG costs me £3.70. The cheapest paper ticket is the Anytime Day Single route Not Underground at £4.40. That is accepted on the Underground when the Thameslink is closed, but still costs more than either PAYG Oyster option.

 

[Aictos]

The Thameslink is opened at weekends BUT only at limited weekends, local station staff should be able to advise of the weekends the route is available.

As to your First travel passes, I would ask the person/s responsible for staff travel at your First company as they should know the answer.

 

[dan_atki]

2) If they are just suspended does the tube accept FCC tickets & passes? (My pass is not specifically for FCC but First Group trains in general)

It might not be a written rule but LU barrier staff at both London Bridge and King's Cross St Pancras have accepted First passes as well as Priv discounted tickets for Cross London journeys when the Central London blockade is on... I would assume seeing as they know what the First passes look like they have been briefed to accept them.

As an aside, what happened when you attempted to use your pass on the Virgin train? Was you made to buy an undiscounted ticket? Personally, in situations like that, I think it is worth asking the guard before boarding if they're fine to allow you to use it.

 

[MikeWh]

I believe that the two stations where you will have to touch out and back in again are part of an OSI (Out of Station Interchange) where only a single fare will be charged despite touching out. (see here)

Edit: Did I just refer you to your OWN site?

Yep, you did.

As john-at-home detailed further up though, there are different fares if you use the underground in zone 1 as well as NR compared to if you just use NR. Even though you touch out at St Pancras, in at KXSP, out at LB and in again at the Southern terminus you will still be charged more. It's still a single journey, but one that includes U1 travel rather than one which doesn't.

 

[causton]

Yep, you did.

As john-at-home detailed further up though, there are different fares if you use the underground in zone 1 as well as NR compared to if you just use NR. Even though you touch out at St Pancras, in at KXSP, out at LB and in again at the Southern terminus you will still be charged more. It's still a single journey, but one that includes U1 travel rather than one which doesn't.

Ah, fair enough, yes, makes more sense

 

[Daniel]

There is formal ticket acceptance in place on LU for the Thameslink closure.

If I remember I'll grab a circular when I book on and give you the exact wording.

I will also point out that if a ticket is genuinely valid over an NR route for which LU are accepting - including staff passes - whether the staff on the gateline recognise the ticket or not!

 

[EM2]

In answer to question 1, there are no scheduled services according to the current timetable.
However, as ajax says, they do sometimes cancel the planned engineering work and open the cross-London service.

 

[87015]

What I do know is that Oyster users get a raw deal. If you use the Thameslink route and other NR lines then you will only get charged the appropriate NR fare, but at weekends you get charged the U1 surcharge on top because you have to touch in and out of the Northern line.

Thats FCC incompetence. The systems are in place and able for TOCs to call upon for this not to happen and the entire (eg) Kentish Tn-Pancras-L.Bridge-E.Croydon journey to be charged as standard FCC journey only despite the LUL routing. I think you will get charged the higher amount at the gates but then get an auto refund of the difference within the standard oyster three days timescale.

To set it up would involve FCC getting off their backsides though, so it might hit be a bit of trouble there.

 

[londonbridge]

The first time this happened to me,ie being charged £3.70 for East Croydon-London Bridge-underground-Kings Cross rather than £2.60 for East Croydon-St Pancras direct on FCC,I rang the Oyster helpline and complained and was told that it was classed as a through fare and no refund was due. When I argued that I shouldn't have to pay more through being told and made to use an alternative route due to engineering work,they said my comment would be noted and passed on.

 

[reb0118]

As an aside, what happened when you attempted to use your pass on the Virgin train? Was you made to buy an undiscounted ticket? Personally, in situations like that, I think it is worth asking the guard before boarding if they're fine to allow you to use it.

I did see the guard on the platform before boarding and that was when he said our passes were not valid. I then asked the platform staff what arrangements were in place for us to continue our journey to Edinburgh as TPE were not providing any services. They told us to board the Virgin train as Virgin were accepting all other operators tickets due to the engineering works. We told the guard this and he still was not convinced - I said he could TI us if he liked as I was 100% sure we were in the right. We got on and travelled up with no more problems.

Our complete journey was this - Scotrail sleeper from Edinburgh to London. FCC from St. Pancras to St. Albans & back. FGW from Paddington to Acton Main Line & back. Then Hull Trains to Doncaster followed by TPE to Edinburgh via Manchester. Due to the engineering works the TPE terminated at Lancaster with a bus connection to Carlisle followed by VT to Edinburgh. A mad cap scheme to use all First Group trains in a day & return from London to Edinburgh only using First.

With regard to Virgin train staff in general 99.9% of the time I have found them very pleasant & helpful to deal with. Regardless of which company you work with I believe in ONE railway and you never know when you or your company's passengers may have to rely on an alternative provider in times of difficulty.

 

[0B00]

TfL bus 17 from London Bridge to Kings Cross accepts FCC tickets when the 'core' is blocked including FCC passes.

As an aside they can also be used on bus 45 from Elephant & Castle to Kings Cross and the 63 from Blackfriars to Kngs Cross.

 

[MikeWh]

TfL bus 17 from London Bridge to Kings Cross accepts FCC tickets when the 'core' is blocked including FCC passes.

As an aside they can also be used on bus 45 from Elephant & Castle to Kings Cross and the 63 from Blackfriars to Kngs Cross.

That would be a disaster for Oyster PAYG holders as it would convert the single journey into three seperate journeys.