FCC Notice of intention to prosecute

[b0b]

The fun question you can't win I'm guessing goes along the lines of:

"Even though you seeked the advice of an experienced retailer to help you purchase your ticket, it is ultimately your responsibility to ensure that is a valid ticket for your journey. What steps did you take to ensure the ticket is valid for the journey you were undertaking?"

 

[amcluesent]

IMHO, it would be a good thing if there was test case on the railway rules with a 'Mr Loophole' type appearing as defence counsel.

As things stand, prosecution 'proof' of intent seems to little more than "he looked a wrong 'un" by the RPI, but the accused is entrapped without being properly advised of their right to silence as the privilege against self-incrimination.

The obligations on the ticket purchaser are well beyond unfair contract terms of the type long expunged when buying insurance, cars etc. And see my other post on the contra preferendum rule being applicable to the T&Cs.

 

[Man30]

Many Thanks for all your replies, it has helped me .
I spoke to CAB this morning and the reply I got was just to reply to the letter and state my point of view if any criminal layer is required then I would have to pay for it.
Secondly I tried to trace the Clerk but to no avail, Railway staff at barking suggested me to go to Fenchurch street C2C office and speak to Manager and I can file a complaint about incorrect ticket sold, I did went to Fenchurch street and explained my case to the manager, he did understood my case and sympathise but said as C2C and FCC are different operators and he can’t be of much help and directed me to another manager who wasn't available so I now need to try and get hold of him. So no high hopes form C2C.

Mean while I my writing a reply back to FCC explaining them what exactly happened on the lines that I didn’t intent to avoid any fare instead it was due to the mistake of clerk who sold me the ticket.

The detail of offence for which FCC intent to prosecute me is for below as mention in the letter:

Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But How would one validate the ticket that it is valid for journey ???

 

[Ferret]

Anyone smell a fob off?

 

[b0b]

Fenchurch street C2C office and speak to Manager and I can file a complaint about incorrect ticket sold, I did went to Fenchurch street and explained my case to the manager, he did understood my case and sympathise

Go back and insist on filing the complaint and have them give you a copy of the complaint. I imagine its more evidence in support of your story with FCC.

As for validating your ticket, unfortunately a quick glance of the London Connections map pretty much shows theres no way to do your journey without going into zone 3, so this is possibly one of the easier tickets to determine that it was not valid.

 

[First class]

Anyone smell a fob off?

Station Staff are instructed generally not to get involved in prosecution cases. This includes station managers.

All contact needs to be capable of being logged.

 

[bb21]

Your dealing with c2c would purely be to see if you can have some sort of back up to say that you were sold the wrong ticket. Why would they need to get involved with FCC? I'm sorry but either the guy misunderstood you or was pulling a fast one here.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How much did the OP pay for the ticket?

I have a monthly Welwyn Garden City to London Zones 4-6 standard season ticket priced at £192-00.

Whereas a monthly Welwyn Garden City to London Zones 2-6 standard season ticket comes in at £240.00 (or £326.40 from Welwyn Garden City if to Zones 1-6).

Big price difference here!

Was this the first time that the OP had ever purchased a monthly season ticket for this particular routeing; if not, did the OP not notice the significant variance between the cost of the ticket this time, compared with the previous time?

Also, is it possible to get from Barking (Zone 4) to Finsbury Park (Zone 2) without passing through any intermediate barriers?

 

[MikeWh]

Also, is it possible to get from Barking (Zone 4) to Finsbury Park (Zone 2) without passing through any intermediate barriers?

This was the reason I asked the OP what route they'd actually taken. Unfortunately they seem to have declined to answer that question. The most logical route from Barking to Finsbury Park is Ham&City to Moorgate then FCC and I believe that you won't pass any barriers doing that. However, you'd need zone 1 to be valid on that journey.

 

[Man30]

Yes I paid £192.00 for the season ticket and it was first time I bought it.
And there are no intermediate barriers to get between Barking and Finsbury park in fact you just the ticket to get in at barking and when you go out at WGC.
The route I took was overground from barking to blackhorse road - Victoria line to Finsbury park - FCC to WGC.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes I paid £192.00 for the season ticket and it was first time I bought it.
And there are no intermediate barriers to get between Barking and Finsbury park in fact you just the ticket to get in at barking and when you go out at WGC.
The route I took was overground from barking to blackhorse road - Victoria line to Finsbury park - FCC to WGC.

OK, yes that works. As you now know you need the £240 ticket for that journey. If you want to save a little at a cost of maybe getting a slower train to WGC then walk from Green Lanes to Harringay. That will keep you out of zone 2. You'll lose the Victoria line change but have a little less choice at Harringay (and may need a cross platform change at Alexandra Palace).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I've enjoyed the arguments to and fro on this thread (from around post 15 to 30) and some may indeed be very pertinent here.

From the facts posted here so far (and only from those), I understand that Man30, the OP, may have excellent prospects of avoiding a prosecution in a Magistrates Court but sadly I'm lacking confidence that their attempts to settle beforehand might suceed.

I'm not willing to post my reason for this optomism on here as it may undermine the success in Court (though I will be happy to discuss off-forum) but I fear any attempt to explain events in writing beforehand will simply add to the accumulated body of (potentially) incriminating statements which will without doubt be reviewed in order to select those which damn the OP and to disregard those which show the TOC to be at fault.

Regrettably, that is the process when the TOC is both the evidence gathering party and the biased prosecutor.

If you want to save a little at a cost of maybe getting a slower train to WGC then walk from Green Lanes to Harringay. That will keep you out of zone 2.

and the cost of that, as a season, for comparison is how much?

 

[MikeWh]

and the cost of that, as a season, for comparison is how much?

I can't get Avantix to run on my PC, but WGC-zone 4 is £192 and WGC-zone 2 is £240 so WGC-zone 3 will be somewhere around £216 I would hope.

 

[Ferret]

Station Staff are instructed generally not to get involved in prosecution cases. This includes station managers.

All contact needs to be capable of being logged.

That sounds sensible I guess. What concerns me is that it's all too easy for c2c to claim 'no knowledge' which doesn't help the OP much!

 

[John @ home]

WGC-zone 3 will be somewhere around £216 I would hope.

A season ticket Welwyn Garden City - London Zones 3-6 costs £211.60 monthly.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So not such a remarkable contrast in costs that 'any reasonable person' could be 'expected' to recognise that anything was amiss.

 

[yorkie]

Mean while I my writing a reply back to FCC explaining them what exactly happened on the lines that I didn’t intent to avoid any fare instead it was due to the mistake of clerk who sold me the ticket.

Not sure if someone has already contacted you offering this or not, but can I suggest you ask us to proof read the letter before sending it? Unless you already have an offer, feel free to PM me the letter, I have contacts who I can consult with (with your permission) and we have had several successes already.

 

[jon0844]

The fun question you can't win I'm guessing goes along the lines of:

"Even though you seeked the advice of an experienced retailer to help you purchase your ticket, it is ultimately your responsibility to ensure that is a valid ticket for your journey. What steps did you take to ensure the ticket is valid for the journey you were undertaking?"

If the OP lost due to questioning like this, I'd hope the local press took some interest and shamed FCC for being so ridiculous, as they'd actually have an interesting story for a change instead of writing about Katie Price turning up for a book signing, or whatever passes for news in local newspapers/websites these days.

Could FCC really think that the OP was intending to travel by bus, or walk between two different lines, and took a chance by taking a train all the way on what would appear to be the most direct and logical route. I am amazed they didn't give the OP the benefit of the doubt, and give a warning that if caught again (they'd have taken the OP's details so a previous check would be known immediately) there would be a PF. That would enable the OP to go to WGC and change it there and then, paying the excess and possibly the £10 admin fee if applicable.

I wonder if the RPI is someone I know?! Did he wear a name badge (the one I know usually doesn't)? If so, did his name begin with M? He gave me my PF when he was totally in the wrong, and still seems to believe he was right to this day - and that I was somehow lucky to win my appeal. In my experience, most are pretty good and fair - and show discretion. One or two clearly don't and actually seem to get a good deal of pleasure. What's odd is how they even noticed, as they usually just glance at the expiry date! Did you look comfortable or suspicious for some reason?

 

[RJ]

I'm a human and I make mistakes. People, especially season ticket buyers are very quick to raise a query if the price is not what they expected.

Unfortunately I see first hand that Travelcard fraud is very common. I've taken to visually inspecting/interrogating ticket/Oyster cards when people ask for a ticket from anywhere beyond Boundary Zone 2 to somewhere outside London. Most commonly requested from Zone 6 or stations like Redhill. The amount of people that produce a Zone 1-2 Travelcard is disappointing. By refusing the sale I've done what I can to prevent the passenger getting into hot water. In a way I can appreciate why RPIs take a hard line when it come to season ticket/Travelcard irregularities as the scale of irregular travel is significantly large.

Now in this case, what actually happened? It's rather difficult to believe that someone parting with £200+ doesn't even look at their ticket before an RPI asks, or check a Tube map to see if they're straying from their zones.

Can the OP successfully convince the prosection that they were led to believe that any part of the GOBLIN or Victoria Line was permitted for a ticket that says it's valid between Welwyn and London Zones 4-6?

 

[jon0844]

I'm still surprised the ticket was checked that thoroughly. I always show my Hatfield to Z4-6 when asked - often between Z1-3 - and it's never been noticed. I am always ready to say a 'whoops, sorry' and show the right ticket (the Oyster card).

Perhaps it is because my Gold Card says 'Travelcard' and the RPIs assume it must be Z1-6, or I have a very trusting face? Bar the exceptional example of one RPI that went after me for a bit, nobody has ever asked to look at it properly on the train or at a gateline in London. If I could be sure that RPIs would work a train, and could be bothered to waste a day, I'd take one of my free FCC passes (already scratched off for the day) and then try and travel up and down the network showing my Hatfield>4-6 ticket every time, on both GN and TL, and seeing how many people question it!

What does a monthly season say on it? Is it still marked as a TC? I'm surprised it was noticed at all.

I would still think that given it's a season, a phone call that would mean a record being made would be enough to serve as a deterrent. 'If caught a second time, we will know we warned you once and it's straight to court'.

Or maybe that DID happen and someone HAD warned the OP before?