FCC Farringdon to St Albans

[Class377]

While the Company continue to exist then it may prosecute an offence.

Would this allow Firstgroup (as they will inevitably still exist) to prosecute, or is it entirely in the ballpark of FCC (who will surely cease to exist in September)? It would be interesting, if it is the latter, to see people chancing it in the last few weeks or so!

 

[greatkingrat]

The company "First Capital Connect Ltd" will not magically disappear, it will just no longer be responsible for running any trains.

Companies such as "Connex South Eastern" and "Central Trains Ltd" are still in existence, many years after they lost their franchises.

It is possible First Group may decide it is not cost effective to pursue historic FCC issues, particularly as the relevant staff will presumably have TUPEd over to the new TSGN franchise. However they could still prosecute if they wished to.

 

[34D]

The company "First Capital Connect Ltd" will not magically disappear, it will just no longer be responsible for running any trains.

Companies such as "Connex South Eastern" and "Central Trains Ltd" are still in existence, many years after they lost their franchises.

It is possible First Group may decide it is not cost effective to pursue historic FCC issues, particularly as the relevant staff will presumably have TUPEd over to the new TSGN franchise. However they could still prosecute if they wished to.

But as we've seen elsewhere on this forum, other toc can prosecute for an alleged offence committed on another

I would expect that the workload for the prosecution team will simply Carry over.

 

[Abpj17]

Yes, FCC has what often feels like an excessive approach to First Class; some ticket inspectors are more lenient than others. If he could walk through the train, it was probably a not unreasonable approach. There are trains when that would simply be impossible.

On really bad days, there is sometimes formal ‘declassification’ - this would normally be shown on the departure list on the platform.

 

[jon0844]

Isn't it time that any stock with poorly marked 1st class areas (missing doors, no stickers etc) are fixed so enforcement can take place fairly? It's no good just having first class on the seats if nearly all of the seats are occupied and you don't look back on the one you sit in. And on some stock, the seats are the same so you hardly look on and think 'Wow, these are spacious' and realise it's first class.

FCC have a few 317s and 321s with little to no markings, for whatever reason, and should be held to account for not making it incredibly clear and obvious. Any prosecution relating to those units should be thrown out!

I'm all for those in first class 'illegally' being dealt with accordingly, but at least fight fair.

 

[KneeOn]

If they wish to use the interview as evidence in court then you would have had to have been cautioned. The caution is the familiar one you heard on TV; 'You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.'

Did the revenue inspector state that caution to you at all? If he didn't it means that the interview he conducted will not be able to be used as evidence in court, but it does not prevent the train company prosecuting you, relying on other evidence.

Pedantically it's "will be used"

Being honest to the OP - it sounds like wires have been crossed. He's taken your request to have a nil paid penalty fare as a "I don't want to pay" and because the RPI is erring on the side of caution he's submitted a cautionless TIR which you felt was the nil paid penalty.

Once it gets ironed out and everyone understands everything FCC will either think you're lying or will side with you and charge an amount of money I don't know.

 

[jon0844]

I do think revenue staff should make it clearer that refusing to pay a PF means it can't be offered later, but if someone accepts a PF, asks if they can pay later and ends up with the PF 'withdrawn' then it's somewhat out of order. They should be told, no, they can't pay later.

 

[FOH]

Is this a 377/2 diagram?
They, and their 377/1 sister units on Southern, are honey traps. It's very difficult to tell who has made a genuine mistake, and who is chancing it.

Why? All seats have antimacassars and all windows are stickered, as are they on the vestibule glass and it is clearly marked on the colour scheme outside. The OP had no trouble realizing it was a 1st class area either.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Why? All seats have antimacassars and all windows are stickered, as are they on the vestibule glass and it is clearly marked on the colour scheme outside. The OP had no trouble realizing it was a 1st class area either.

I was at the Virgin First Class Lounge at Euston yesterday and I had to point out to two separate parties that the lift was out of order even though there was an A4 poster six inches from their nose stating this.

Sometimes people don't see things especially if they are not looking for them or are crushed in to a hot train.

 

[Haywain]

I don't know what the point of all this is. The OP knew and acknowledges that he was in First Class accommodation. How that part of the train was marked, or whether it had doors is irrelevant (and, for the record, FCC do not use 317s on that route any more and have never used 321s on Thameslink), so this is not about fairness or luck.

 

[jon0844]

I've seen many trains that have poorly marked first class areas. Some of the ex-LM 321s that FCC got (and by the way, I know these aren't on the TL side but plenty of people are pointing out that there are some 377s that are much the same) had just the old-style BR '1' numbers on the grey background. And that's it. I guess that's how LM delivered them after removing all of its own material.

Obviously FCC would/will eventually put on their own stickers, which are much more obvious, but perhaps they were just going through the process of having the anti-etch film on the glass, and so on.. whatever the case, two very small '1's and antimacassars that will be invisible if people are in the seats does not, to me, mean it's obvious to all.

I'm the first to say that those who knowingly go into first - even to stand, or believing that perching on an arm rest isn't really being in there - should be done, but I'm not going to pretend that some people aren't genuinely caught out.

In fact, I'd say there are a good few people that I've seen come into first class and take a few minutes to realise (even when marked more clearly) and then quickly left. In these cases, had an RPI jumped on them the second they entered and sat down, once the doors had closed, they'd be in big trouble.

 

[Abpj17]

Particularly on this FCC line, around half of their first-class sections are permanently declassified. So the layout of the seating and the doors isn't the only marker.

 

[Class377]

I don't know what the point of all this is. The OP knew and acknowledges that he was in First Class accommodation. How that part of the train was marked, or whether it had doors is irrelevant (and, for the record, FCC do not use 317s on that route any more and have never used 321s on Thameslink), so this is not about fairness or luck.

I was under the impression there used to be a single 321 running Moorgate-Bedford in the peaks a few years ago?

Particularly on this FCC line, around half of their first-class sections are permanently declassified. So the layout of the seating and the doors isn't the only marker.

Indeed - and it's not just the case that they're declassified, but there are also great big stickers stating those sections may be used by standard class ticket holders, so it's possible to imagine someone getting used to seeing those stickers (similar to the first class ones) and just thinking it was declassified.

 

[jon0844]

It was a 317 used to Moorgate.

Thanks to some 377s on the TL side being the other way around, it's never easy to know where the declassified end will be. It must be a pain for those who are seeking either! But worse than that, if there are two sets joined up you might walk into the declassified section and then when walking through to the next set, be in first class. It's certainly even less obvious when you come in via the other side.

Clearly many, maybe even most, people know what they're doing and where they are but I accept some will make an innocent mistake on some trains. A good RPI can probably detect which through the basic attitude test and maybe the reaction. Anyone saying 'but there were no seats out there' or 'I pay £nnnn per year for a ticket' will instantly fail. Those who appear genuinely shocked or surprised may be shown some leniency.

 

[FOH]

Why? All seats have antimacassars and all windows are stickered, as are they on the vestibule glass and it is clearly marked on the colour scheme outside. The OP had no trouble realizing it was a 1st class area either.

Took a photo this morning on a 377/1 (no doors separating first class) with all seats taken to demonstrate
Link

 

[hassaanhc]

Took a photo this morning on a 377/1 (no doors separating first class) with all seats taken to demonstrate
Link

Hmm, the handrail looks more like the ones used on the /4 & /5 rather than a /1? :? http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/southern-completes-100th-class-377-refresh/
Unless I've missed something

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Took a photo this morning on a 377/1 (no doors separating first class) with all seats taken to demonstrate
Link

This has nothing to do with the OP's concern and FCC do not use 377/1 units so what is the relevance here?

 

[FOH]

This has nothing to do with the OP's concern and FCC do not use 377/1 units so what is the relevance here?

My friend, you need to read the linked messages. I agree this isn't to do with the OP, it was to do with the reference to Southern 377s being honeypots.

Hmm, the handrail looks more like the ones used on the /4 & /5 rather than a /1? :? http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/southern-completes-100th-class-377-refresh/
Unless I've missed something

You may well be right but I thought it was a post-refurb 377/1 I was on this morning. Don't the /4 and /5 have the separating doors? Plus the non-table seats were pairs rather than inward facing singles.

 

[TEW]

I'm pretty sure the last batch of 377/1s and the 377/2s have those poles but no separating doors.

 

[Abpj17]

It was a 317 used to Moorgate.

Thanks to some 377s on the TL side being the other way around, it's never easy to know where the declassified end will be. It must be a pain for those who are seeking either! But worse than that, if there are two sets joined up you might walk into the declassified section and then when walking through to the next set, be in first class. It's certainly even less obvious when you come in via the other side.

Clearly many, maybe even most, people know what they're doing and where they are but I accept some will make an innocent mistake on some trains. A good RPI can probably detect which through the basic attitude test and maybe the reaction. Anyone saying 'but there were no seats out there' or 'I pay £nnnn per year for a ticket' will instantly fail. Those who appear genuinely shocked or surprised may be shown some leniency.

You can *usually* work it out. Overhead information will say roughly where First Class is. And it's unusual for back of the first four and front of the last four to both be first class. So stand in the middle for those trains and you're normally ok.

If the train is busy tho, stickers and headrest covers may easily be covered by people so the difference between classified and declassified narrows even more.

 

[jon0844]

Where first class is isn't always shown though.

At least on the GN side, I can't remember a time when a 321 has had first class at the wrong end (and obviously the 365s have both ends, and the 317s don't matter as it's at worst the next carriage - and the pantograph points to the right one from a distance).

It doesn't matter too much on the 377s though, as you have 2+2 throughout the end two carriages anyway, and it can feel quite stuffy in first class or the declassified section (with little to no room for bags etc). So, rushing to find the compartment isn't as big a deal as getting into a much bigger and more spacious 321 on the GN side.

 

[gouldja]

Update...

3 Weeks after the incident I received a letter notifying of intent to prosecute on the railway by law of remaining in a carriage without the correct ticket, asking me to write my factual version of events.

I replied on the same day, two weeks later I received a very short letter saying the matter has been closed and no action will be taken.

thanks to all those offering advise, certainly would not want to be in the situation again, but reliefed its over without incident

 

[bb21]

Thanks for letting us know. I am glad that the matter is now dropped.