Fares Not Available on SWT Machines

[embers25]

As you may be aware from previous posts many destinations are not available on SWT ticket machines including Kintbury, St James Park, Walton-on-Naze, Tame Bridge and Walsall to name but a few. In addition Chiltern priced Super Off Peak tickets to stations on their Birmingham route are also not offered leading to customers either being conned into buying higher fares or if they know about these MUCH cheaper fares they have to join the queue at the ticket office, if it is open, to buy them. In addition they don't sell groupsave tickets.
Anyway they had a meet the manager tonight and so I enquired and was told the following:

When installing the machines they thought 98% of destinations being offered would be fine and although now they realise they were wrong the continually promised software upgrade to "allegedly" add in all the missing destinations is up to 6 months away which is TOTALLY unacceptable. Groupsave were not added due to the risk of fraud...I guess along the lines of the Schones Wochenende problems. This should also hopefully be fixed with the upgrade.

So I asked what should I do in the following cases:

(i) Pinhoe to St James Park (the cheapest fare from Pinhoe but not on the machine) - answer was buy online or pay the higher fare to Exeter Central and claim a refund there (I'm sure fGW would love that!)

(ii) Woking to Walsall - At first they said buying a ticket to somewhere en route and then excessing the rest of the way there (as suggested on here before) was not ok but when they realised there was no other option they agreed that made sense. However that means having to delay your journey and try to ensure they do the upgrade correct. Also you'd have to queue at another ticket office to do this as machines can't do excesses (in theory the guard could I guess do the upgrade but many don't believe you when you say the station doesn't exist on machines).

(iii) Purchasing a groupsave ticket - answer buy in advance as most group travel isn't spur of the moment and so this shouldn't be an issue(!) or pay for tickets for each person at full price and claim back the extra fares paid later.

Obviously suggesting that you HAVE to buy a walk up ticket in advance is totally unfair and why on earth should I be forced to pay a higher fare than my actual fare or be inconvenienced by having to excess my ticket at a station along the way. In the case of Groupsave this potentially means paying for 4 tickets instead of two which can be a MASSIVE extra cost.
This can't be right and also can someone confirm if this violates conditions for operating Penalty Fares as I thought to operate Penalty Fares you had to sell the full range of tickets at all times or have a permit to travel machine (and the only one I've found left on SWT is at Whitchurch for some bizarre reason).
I asked if I could board without a ticket and seek out the guard immediately and was told no and that I'd be Penalty Fared. Surely if no opportunity to buy the fare I want exists I can't be Penalty Fared???

They also said that is is not illegal to only display higher priced fares on machines. That is so unfair and VERY underhand as how does the average traveller know a cheaper fare is available if it is not offered and there is no ticket office. Even if I did know I'd have to pay the higher fare apparently and claim it back later which surely is VERY VERY wrong and dishonest.

So basically I want super off peak groupsave tickets from A to B for 4 people and because I have no ticket office to go to instead I have to by a 4 Off Peak returns from A to C meaning I've paid to go too far and for two extra people!!!!!!!! That surely cannot be allowed within Penalty Fare Zone operating rules?

 

[yorkie]

(iii) Purchasing a groupsave ticket - answer buy in advance as most group travel isn't spur of the moment and so this shouldn't be an issue(!) or pay for tickets for each person at full price and claim back the extra fares paid later.

Actually no, we are entitled to buy a cheaper ticket part-way and exchange en-route. Do they deny this entitlement? If so, contact details of who is making this claim may be useful...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They also said that is is not illegal to only display higher priced fares on machines.

It may not be illegal but I believe it is against the rules of impartial retailing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So basically I want super off peak groupsave tickets from A to B for 4 people and because I have no ticket office to go to instead I have to by a 4 Off Peak returns from A to C meaning I've paid to go too far and for two extra people!!!!!!!! That surely cannot be allowed within Penalty Fare Zone operating rules?

No, you buy cheaper tickets and exchange en-route.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy
an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay
the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to
Travel.

Is a manager denying this? If so, who are they, and where/how can they be contacted?

 

[swt_passenger]

This can't be right and also can someone confirm if this violates conditions for operating Penalty Fares as I thought to operate Penalty Fares you had to sell the full range of tickets at all times or have a permit to travel machine (and the only one I've found left on SWT is at Whitchurch for some bizarre reason).

Although there seems to be a general assumption that stations in PF areas MUST have PTT machines this is not actually the case.

The current rules have this to say on the subject, (emphasis added):

"4.13 At staffed stations, operators must provide a second way of selling tickets in addition to the ticket office. This might be a 'permit to travel' machine OR one or more self-service ticket machines."

"4.15 We do not recommend that large numbers of unstaffed stations are included in a penalty fares scheme. However, unstaffed stations can be penalty fares stations as long as they have at least one self-service ticket machine OR one 'permit to travel' machine."

Nothing I can find in the online rules requires them to have PTT machines specifically to cope with a TVM not selling the full range of tickets, or breaking down completely.

A couple of SWT PTT machines (of a new type) have been fitted comparatively recently at Redbridge and Millbrook, however they been removed from the SWT area generally apart from very few exceptions.

 

[Ferret]

(iii) Purchasing a groupsave ticket - answer buy in advance as most group travel isn't spur of the moment and so this shouldn't be an issue(!) or pay for tickets for each person at full price and claim back the extra fares paid later.

I'm wondering whether Groupsave isn't available on the TVMs because of the dreaded Groupsave v XC issue....... When I was at Basingstoke recently, they had put up a notice in the ticket office window regarding Groupsave only being for SWT services and the TVMs there would not sell Groupsave tickets. Just a thought - I could be putting 2 + 2 together and making 12, but then.....!

 

[jon0844]

I don't get the fraud argument for selling discounted tickets or extensions from a TVM. If caught without the necessary railcard, being in a group, or travelling somewhere that isn't covered by the extension part, you are done for fraud. Simple.

Why should everyone else have to deal with the above mentioned problems when someone who is out to defraud would be better off with no ticket at all and coming up with one of many excuses. And if a TOC can't be bothered to police things properly, at least they're getting SOME money that way - and have the ability to prosecute when they do check up.

And, everyone else like you and me can get the tickets we want from a machine!

 

[b0b]

Or even better have a touchscreen kiosk that can provide the more exotic choices that can immediately be picked up a the TVM.

Wait, that'd make too much sense

 

[yorkie]

Don't get me started on GroupSave

3 people, A, B and C arrive at Littletown and say they are interested in using the train but may use an alternative means of travel, but if they did choose to go by train they'd want GroupSave tickets, TVM won't sell them and the only member of staff says that there are no RPIs on duty on the network on a Sunday and the only ticket office that is open is not on their route. He says the only chance to buy a ticket will be on the train in the unlikely event of an RPI being on duty but he believes there are none, so there would probably be no opportunity to pay at all. They get to Intermediatetown and Mr C decides to abandon the journey there. He has a separate ticket that is valid at that place, and therefore feels he no longer needs to buy a ticket. A and B then continue to Destinationtown and to their surprise a barrier is actually in operation there. If you were Mr A and Mr B, what would you do? And if you were the barrier staff, what should they be sold? Mr A and Mr B didn't want to risk it, fearing that the barrier staff would not believe their story so went to the smaller Suburbtown station, which was close enough to Destinationtown to match their needs, so nothing happened in the end. Mr A, Mr B and Mr C all got free rides, but were willing to pay the correct fare had the machines sold GroupSave.

Personally I think GroupSave should be abolished and a national Railcard should be introduced instead, available to all, but not valid until 10am (or minimum fare before 10am).

 

[Tom C]

3 people, A, B and C arrive at Littletown and say they are interested in using the train but may use an alternative means of travel, but if they did choose to go by train they'd want GroupSave tickets, TVM won't sell them and the only member of staff says that there are no RPIs on duty on the network on a Sunday and the only ticket office that is open is not on their route. He says the only chance to buy a ticket will be on the train in the unlikely event of an RPI being on duty but he believes there are none, so there would probably be no opportunity to pay at all. They get to Intermediatetown and Mr C decides to abandon the journey there. He has a separate ticket that is valid at that place, and therefore feels he no longer needs to buy a ticket. A and B then continue to Destinationtown and to their surprise a barrier is actually in operation there. If you were Mr A and Mr B, what would you do? And if you were the barrier staff, what should they be sold? Mr A and Mr B didn't want to risk it, fearing that the barrier staff would not believe their story so went to the smaller Suburbtown station, which was close enough to Destinationtown to match their needs, so nothing happened in the end. Mr A, Mr B and Mr C all got free rides, but were willing to pay the correct fare had the machines sold GroupSave.

Ahhhhhhhh but as Mr C is no longer in the group, the groupsave ticket is now invalid therefore an excess fare would be required in any case so was not the right product to sell in the first place

Correct ticket to sell: SDS or PF for not having any ticket which they could get from the TVM <runs>

GroupSave Terms and Conditions

2.GroupSave fares are based on all people travelling together at all times and cannot split from the group to travel separately. Failure to do so could result in a penalty fare

Shockingly this is actually incorrect as the ticket is only invalid due to a Restriction therefore should be excessed (in my opinion? maybe I am missing something)

This is certainly how I would deal with GPS when not in a valid group??????

 

[yorkie]

Interesting. I agree with your interpretation, Tom C.

If it is the case that 2 people could be issued with PFs because 1 person who was with them abandoned them, then that would be quite interesting, and expose the PF system for the absolute sham that it is.

That said, in the situation of A, B and C, Mr A and B would have the added worry of not being believed possibly resulting in an MG11.

 

[Bedpan]

Not quite sure that I understand as they never did buy any tickets, ans since the third person only went to Intermediatetown there were only two of them left from then on.

What would happen though if four of them had intended travelling and they had bought groupsave tickets (four for the price of two) the day before when the ticket office WAS open, but only three travelled on the day because the fourth one had been taken ill overnight? I would have thought that as the rule is that people shoule not split from the group and travel separately, they should be ok provided they have all four tickets in their posession. I had a situation last year when a Canadian relative had stayed with us for a week, after which we visited other family members and "handed him over" so that he could stay with them for the second week of his visit. So effectively we had four people travelling to London and three coming back, he wasn't travelling separately when we came home as he wasn't travelling at all. We made sure that we kept his ticket so that we could produce it on the way home if we needed to, the total fare was the same for three people as for four, so I would have been most upset if I had been PF'd.

 

[wintonian]

If I may ask a related question so as not to start a new thread,

I was at Portsmouth Harbour the other day wanting to buy a Ryde Esplnade to Shanklin ticket and was informed in no unceartain terms that they do not and have never sold tickets for the Isle of Weight there, is that correct and alowed in the rules of impartial selling?

 

[paul1609]

If I may ask a related question so as not to start a new thread,

I was at Portsmouth Harbour the other day wanting to buy a Ryde Esplnade to Shanklin ticket and was informed in no unceartain terms that they do not and have never sold tickets for the Isle of Weight there, is that correct and alowed in the rules of impartial selling?

Yes it is correct. Portsmouth Harbour have never sold isle of wight tickets. Under the through ticket agreement with Wightlink, Wightlink are reponsible for selling Island line tickets. Think this arrangement dates back to BR/ sealink days.

 

[bnm]

Yet, I can buy that ticket from ScotRail online if I so desire.

But not from the mainland station nearest the IoW? Madness.

 

[wintonian]

Yet, I can buy that ticket from ScotRail online if I so desire.

But not from the mainland station nearest the IoW? Madness.

I dont know if its just me but when I want to buy a train ticket the first place I think of going is the railway station not the ferry port!

 

[Matt Taylor]

What an odd situation, I have lived in Portsmouth most of my life and I have even done a few shifts in the ticket office at Portsmouth Harbour but I didn't know that.

 

[wintonian]

What an odd situation, I have lived in Portsmouth most of my life and I have even done a few shifts in the ticket office at Portsmouth Harbour but I didn't know that.

In that case it's nots supprising that they don't appear to tell the passengers that they can buy them from Wightlink, if indeed anyone at Wightlink knows they do, some kind of notice at the ticket office would have been nice so I didn't have to stand in the que only to be told to buy it on the island.