Failure to produce a ticket when requested

[Flamingo]

From time to time I will leave somebody who is taking their time and come back to them later. If I don't believe them, I may charge them in the understanding that if they find their ticket before the end of the journey I will refund them. (I have never had to do a refund yet)

Wot he said

 

[drbdrb]

How long to RPIs give before they start taking down details?

If the question is "how long have you got to produce a ticket" the absolute answer is -As long as it takes to get BTP to arrive to arrest you.

If you know you have a ticket but can't find it, then how is the RPI going to fill in any paperwork if every answer to any question is "hang on a minute, I know it is here somewhere".

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm really not sure what this post is hoping to add to the debate:-

If the question is "how long have you got to produce a ticket" the absolute answer is -As long as it takes to get BTP to arrive to arrest you.

Do you really think so?

By reading the relevant legislation we can see that would be an infinite amount of time, as simply failing to present a valid ticket is not an arrestable offence by itself.

As I and others have already attempted to explain (though apparently not very successfully), there is no need to consider the quantum of time. It doesn't assist any of us to define it. Anyone doing so only exposes their definition to a sterile challenge, and by not doing so, they still provide adequate protection to the interests of all parties and to justice.

 

[drbdrb]

there is no need to consider the quantum of time.

So you don't think there is some point in time that the RPI will get fed up of someone avoiding providing the information to fill in their forms and call the BTP?

And don't you think that the BTP will find some reason to deal with that person.

In which case, there is a time limit and it is not infinite, the limit is just hard to define.

 

[Greenback]

So you don't think there is some point in time that the RPI will get fed up of someone avoiding providing the information to fill in their forms and call the BTP?

I doubt the BTP would be called. In most cases, once the guard has decided the person has had enough time to find their lost ticket hey will simply deal with it, probably by way of selling a new ticket or issuing a UPFN, possibly by using their discretion and taking no action at all.

And don't you think that the BTP will find some reason to deal with that person.

In the unlikely event that the BTP were called over such a matter, and the even more unlikely event that they turned up, I would expect the guard to be told to sort it out and stop wasting police time. I certainly wouldn't expect them to find a reason to arrest the passenger, provided they were not breaking the law in some manner.

In which case, there is a time limit and it is not infinite, the limit is just hard to define.

No, there really isn't.

 

[talltim]

The wording is very clear to those who don't try to pick it to shreds in order to find fault.

Surely it should be clear to everyone?

 

[Greenback]

Surely it should be clear to everyone?

It is clear. Those who pick it to pieces know what it means, but they want it to mean something else!

 

[drbdrb]

In most cases, once the guard has decided the person has had enough time to find their lost ticket hey will simply deal with it, probably by way of selling a new ticket or issuing a UPFN, possibly by using their discretion and taking no action at all.

You can only "sell" an UPFN if someone wants to "buy" one.

How do you fill in the paperwork when the answer to any question is "hold on a minute, I am sure my ticket is here somewhere"?

And do you really not think that after 10, 15, 30 minutes something wouldn't happen?

 

[Deerfold]

You can only "sell" an UPFN if someone wants to "buy" one.

That doesn't seem to be the case. A UPFN is not invalid if not signed.

How do you fill in the paperwork when the answer to any question is "hold on a minute, I am sure my ticket is here somewhere"?

You disbelieve them after a while and fill it in anyway.

And do you really not think that after 10, 15, 30 minutes something wouldn't happen?

Other than a UPFN being filled in?

So you don't think there is some point in time that the RPI will get fed up of someone avoiding providing the information to fill in their forms and call the BTP?

And don't you think that the BTP will find some reason to deal with that person.

Most on-train staff do not have any BTP handy.

I've regularly travelled by train for nearly 30 years and outside of a handful of major stations where they're based I can count the number of BTP staff I've seen on one hand.

 

[Greenback]

Deerfold has already responded with most of things I was going to say. It really is no different to any case of ticket irregularities, except that the staff member will go off and return later.

So, in essence, it would be exactly the same scenario if the passenger still couldn't find their ticket as if they admitted not having one in the first place. They will be given the chance to buy another, and things may escalate if they refuse,. or say that they have insufficient funds.

The prime objective for the guard will be to obtain details for the issue of a UPFN or a report to the prosecutions department if the offer of the purchase of a new ticket is refused. However, I'm sure that we will all know of instances when the ticketless passenger will be asked to leave the train. I also know of instances where discretion has ben shown and the passenger given the benefit of the doubt. What actually happens will vary according to circumstances, such as where the passenger is vulnerable.

It is highly unlikely that the BTP will be called.

 

[Haywain]

It is highly unlikely that the BTP will be called.

Although if the 'customer' responds to requests for name and address by persistently saying "Hang on, it's here somewhere." that will quite likely be seen as a refusal to provide details, and may result in BTP involvement.

 

[Greenback]

Although if the 'customer' responds to requests for name and address by persistently saying "Hang on, it's here somewhere." that will quite likely be seen as a refusal to provide details, and may result in BTP involvement.

Yes, that is more likely, as would be the case if the traveller became aggressive or demonstrated some other form of anti social behaviour. I still think it is dependent on what actually happens, the passenger's response, and where the train is.

 

[drbdrb]

Although if the 'customer' responds to requests for name and address by persistently saying "Hang on, it's here somewhere." that will quite likely be seen as a refusal to provide details, and may result in BTP involvement.

Precisely my point.

 

[Greenback]

It still isn't that likely. What option does the guard have, in reality, outside of the major cities? Particularly if it's a local journey? Most TOC's would not want to be hit by fines for late running trains in order to collect a £5 fare. TOC's also tell their front line staff to avoid confrontation, and not to risk their own safety.

The reality is, that faced with an uncooperative but polite passenger, who insists they have bought a ticket but can't find it so they will not buy another, the options available to the guard are quite limited. They will normally use their training and communication skills to persuade the person that they need another ticket, should they continue to refuse, there is often very little that can be done.

Naturally, there will be exceptions when BTP will be called to deal with ticketing irregularities, but they will be very rare.

 

[Haywain]

My point was that it shouldn't be tried on a long distance journey where there is plenty of time to call the BTP.

 

[Greenback]

My point was that it shouldn't be tried on a long distance journey where there is plenty of time to call the BTP.

Quite. In my experience the vast majority of passengers who really have mislaid their ticket will be happy to buy another one where they are travelling a short distance, but I'm sure they are much more likely to become uncooperative if they are travelling from London to Manchester and are asked to buy a walk up single!

But even then, I expect that the majority of guards will do their best to resolve matters without recourse to the BTP.

 

[sarahj]

You can often tell by the way the passengers look for their ticket of if its genuine or not. Sometimes its just the way they 'dance'.
But some give and take can be given.
Eg. Pass comes up in a panic.' I cannot find my ticket, I'll have to buy a new one'. Me.' Calm down, take another look, and in 5 mins no luck, then we'll talk about a new ticket.' Pass relaxed, pass found ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

Used to have a regular and his MO was to come rushing up, "My bag's been stolen, it has my ticket and airline ticket in it!".

I partially fell for it first time, (he got from Bristol to Reading before I picked enough holes in his story to bounce him off), the three times after that he left at the next stop (or once, before we left!).

 

[pethadine82]

airlines dont issue the red carbon paper tickets that date to the 90s.
They issue e-tickets, I just take my passport and the email on my phone, and that always works.

 

[najaB]

airlines dont issue the red carbon paper tickets that date to the 90s.
They issue e-tickets, I just take my passport and the email on my phone, and that always works.

While I know this guy was trying to cheat the system, but it's still possible to get issued paper tickets in some circumstances - e.g. if you buy at the airport/airline ticket office using vouchers.

 

[island]

Even then it's an e-ticket. The paper is a receipt.

Only if you buy on a very out of the way airline is there much chance of getting a paper ticket.

 

[najaB]

Only if you buy on a very out of the way airline is there much chance of getting a paper ticket.

Agreed - it's possible, but not likely. Some US carriers still issue paper tickets if requested, but they slap on some pretty hefty fees for the privilege - something like $50 per segment.

 

[Deerfold]

Even then it's an e-ticket. The paper is a receipt.

Only if you buy on a very out of the way airline is there much chance of getting a paper ticket.

There are airlines who delight in charging a small fortune if you have not printed out your boarding pass though.

 

[Class377]

Of course, airlines can get away with it though, since they are all effectively "advance" tickets (so people can't get away with two people showing the same ticket on two phones). We also need to remember that, obviously, a passport is needed to back up the ticket - we can't do that with the railways!

 

[DarloRich]

Technically the passenger has committed a prosecutable offence here, under Byelaw 18(2):

That doesn't actually say how long they have to do so.

A test of reasonableness surely?

 

[island]

A test of reasonableness surely?

We had that discussion fairly recently and it is not something on which someone wishing to avoid prosecution should spend much time.