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Facing prosecution [XC - Using a ticket on a cheaper route]

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GadgetMan

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I suspect this whole saga is a result of some foolish XC policy where a TIR (Travel Irregularity Report) must be completed for every zero fare ticket issued.

I found the majority of experienced Guards continued to issue Zero Fares Excesses correctly without a TIR unless the situation required the passenger to be reported. Sometimes even just making the excess ticket value 5 or 10p to disguise the fact its a Zero Fare. The more recent recruits who have known no different to what brain washing they now receive in so called Revenue Training are following instructions.

The failure then lies with whoever is actioning these pointless TIRs which should just be filed in the bin.
 
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John Palmer

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Long post – sorry.

I am unclear as to what happened on the day of the hearing, and therefore as to the basis on which the proceedings were disposed.

It appears that a summons was served upon you and that as a consequence you sought professional assistance. I cannot tell whether you sought advice only, or representation in the proceedings.

If you consulted a solicitor then you should have received a client care letter. Costs in criminal proceedings are not an area in which I have any expertise, but it would appear that, in order to preserve your opportunity to recover costs in the event of the prosecution failing (as it did), the client care letter should have included guidance about funding options for the proceedings and should have drawn to your attention the need to apply for legal aid. There is Law Society guidance to this effect.

My understanding is that, irrespective of whether you would have been financially eligible for legal aid to defend the proceedings, you should have applied for it. It appears that this is a pre-requisite of being able to make application for an order that part of your legal costs are to be paid by the prosecutor following your acquittal.

It appears, furthermore, that the costs recoverable by you as a successful defendant in criminal proceedings are subject to a cap, in that the amount recoverable will be no more than the amount payable under specified legal aid rates, irrespective of whether you received representation as a legally aided or as a private fee-paying client. Legal aid costs can be expected to be significantly less than charges made to a private fee-paying client.

This seems to have been a wholly unmeritorious prosecution, a conclusion supported by the fact that it was one with which the prosecutor was not prepared to proceed. Nevertheless that prosecutor may, apparently, have allowed it to get as far as a trial (a ‘not guilty’ plea having previously been entered). I imagine that in consequence, and on the assumption you engaged professional representation, your lawyer made preparations for trial on a contested basis, possibly at significant expense to you. I fear that, due to the restrictive regime applying to successful defendants’ costs, you may not recover that expense in full from the prosecutor, even if all the conditions for a successful costs application have been satisfied.

This is very much at variance with the civil costs regime with which I am more familiar. In civil proceedings, the Court can signify its disapproval of unreasonable conduct by one of the parties to proceedings by making an award of indemnity costs to that party’s opponent. A significant feature of an award of costs on the indemnity basis is that the onus lies on the party having to pay the costs to show that the sums being claimed by the receiving party are unreasonable, as distinct from the standard basis, in which the receiver has to show that the costs claimed are reasonable. Had this been dealt with as a civil law claim, you might well have found yourself strongly placed to recover legal costs from the train company on the indemnity basis.

In the context of what was, essentially, a commercial transaction between you and the train company in which the criminal law should arguably have no place, the outcome of being able to recover only a capped sum in costs, let alone recovery on an indemnity basis, would be thoroughly unsatisfactory.

At the very least I also think wider publicity should be given to the train company’s observation that you should record in writing your ticket buying conversations.
 

Tetchytyke

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I hope you have now written to Arriva, enclosing a copy of the invoice for legal fees incurred, requesting reimbursement of these fees due to the negligence of Arriva (and this is separate to any entitlement you may have, as explained above).

I would request and expect significant compensation for the distress caused by this whole sorry episode.
 
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Realfish

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A few days before the initial court hearing I received a letter from the train company informing me that they intended to drop the prosecution. Also informing me next time I should record all my ticket buying conversations in writing!?


I've had a go at redrafting the NRCOC. Here goes;

National Rail Conditions of Carriage

Section D. YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES

21. Buying tickets

As soon as you can, you should check that the details shown on the ticket are consistent with the journey you intend to make and that you have received the correct change. If you think a mistake has been made you should tell the person who sold you the ticket as soon as possible.

You should arrive early enough enable you to buy your ticket and to enable you to record all of your ticket buying conversations in writing. You should agree the account of the conversation with the member of staff who sold you the ticket and get them to sign the written document as a true record. You must always carry sufficient stationery for the purposes of obtaining the record and in addition, a 'sharpie' pen for those traveling on GTR services.

Passengers purchasing tickets via a TVM should video the transaction using high definition, wide ratio recording equipment.
 

martinsh

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You should arrive early enough enable you to buy your ticket and to enable you to record all of your ticket buying conversations in writing. You should agree the account of the conversation with the member of staff who sold you the ticket and get them to sign the written document as a true record. You must always carry sufficient stationery for the purposes of obtaining the record and in addition, a 'sharpie' pen for those traveling on GTR services.

Passengers purchasing tickets via a TVM should video the transaction using high definition, wide ratio recording equipment.

Should I record in writing the conversation I have with the TVM ?;)
[Usually of the form "hurry up you b*****y useless thing" !! ]
 

gray1404

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Same here, you need to be compensated for this. Now that the legal matter has ben dropped, I would send a formal complaint back to the letter on the letter you received from Cross Country. I would also take the matter to Transport Focus if they do not pay up a sizable sum. Have they offered to cover your legal costs?

I wonder what others on here think in terms of how the OP should get XC to pay up?
 

Tim R-T-C

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I wonder what others on here think in terms of how the OP should get XC to pay up?

Well I would suggest to write to them first giving full details and giving them a chance to sort things out first, before worrying about legal or more complex avenues.
 

gray1404

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A zero fare by default warrants for a TIR - I've heard it all now! Is there really such a policy on XC?
 

cuccir

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Well, glad it was dropped, but a horrid experience. Having gone through something similar with the CPS (funding cuts at least where I live mean that they can only look at evidence 1-2 weeks before court, but thanks for that experience Tory voters) I can appreciate the desire to ignore it and move on. Our lawyers and judges do a great job but the legal system is collapsing around them :(
 

furlong

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A few days before the initial court hearing I received a letter from the train company informing me that they intended to drop the prosecution. Also informing me next time I should record all my ticket buying conversations in writing!?

Well that statement in itself may form grounds for a further complaint. I still think you should invite the ORR to investigate the entire incident through Making a complaint to us using: contact.cct <at> orr.gsi.gov.uk You should list the general concerns - whether it's ever happened to anyone else before or might still happen to someone else in future, that people less clued-up than you might have assumed the company was in the right and ended up with a criminal conviction or paid an out-of-court settlement, that placing a requirement on you to record your future ticket-buying conversations in writing [what are the exact words used?] might in itself constitute an offence or breach of the terms of the franchise etc.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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I'm struggling to find the relevant facts of this matter in amongst all the personal opinions, commentary, unsound advice, and aspirations by others, but in terms of claiming costs then I guess I would have made a point of doing this during the abandoned (but still listed for hearing) prosecution in the Magistrates Court. The bench would have been empowerd to make an award of a properly presented schedule of costs.

But as that opportunity has now passed, we can look at other options.
I have no sense of what costs were actually incurred; (these could range from nil to a few hundred pounds). Any quantum of costs based on stress or inconvenience in the form of 'General Damages' is not likely to be recoverable at this stage with ease, nor cheaply.
But if these actual costs were substantial, I would advise, firstly, seeking a compensatory settlement, which should be negotiated by the lawyer whose costs are being sought, and if that negotiation is not successful, they could then form the evidence of a claim for actual damages. I have to say that at this stage, and assuming that no cost was incurred by instructing a solicitor to appear in the abandoned hearing, then none of the above is probably worth the effort.

. . . . the CPS (funding cuts at least where I live mean that they can only look at evidence 1-2 weeks before court, but thanks for that experience Tory voters) I can appreciate the desire to ignore it and move on. Our lawyers and judges do a great job but the legal system is collapsing around them :(
A very astute comment. And the situation appears to be getting worse. Though while the CPS are not involved in private prosecutions such as Railway Company prosecutions, I do agree that they find themselves in an apparently irrecoverable spiral of increasing work and decreasing resources. And no way out of the relentless uncontrolled drop into an inability to perform any of their duties.

However (and this is specifically not advice to SELW for this incident having developed this far), where certain conditions are satisfied, a claim under the tort of 'malicious prosecution' can be appropriate.
 

Jonfun

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A zero fare by default warrants for a TIR - I've heard it all now! Is there really such a policy on XC?

Of course there is. Like Abraham Lincoln once said in his famous speech, don't you know everything people write on internet forums is true?


I'd wager most Train Managers haven't done a TIR in their careers.
 

furlong

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they can only look at evidence 1-2 weeks before court

Sounds like good progress - observations a couple of years ago led me to understand the day before (with consequential adjournments of anything non-routine) was normal!
 
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PermitToTravel

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Of course there is. Like Abraham Lincoln once said in his famous speech, don't you know everything people write on internet forums is true?


I'd wager most Train Managers haven't done a TIR in their careers.

GadgetMan is (or says they are) an XC guard. Other XC people who say that they are XC guards have said the same thing before.
 

gray1404

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Of course there is. Like Abraham Lincoln once said in his famous speech, don't you know everything people write on internet forums is true?


I'd wager most Train Managers haven't done a TIR in their careers.

But the problem is that a zero excess doesn't mean there has actually been in iragularity. Also to issue a TIR form it requires the name and address of the said passenger. I hardly see it as a requirment for a customer to have to give their name and address just because they have a legitimate reason for needing a zero excess.

Again, does such a policy exist on XC that a TIR needs to be filled out for every zero excess (some other internal form perhaps but surely not a TIR)?
 

najaB

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Was :p

I'm sure Jonfun will now tell us what Qualifies him to dispute what I said.
I won't dispute your statement that it is policy, but I've seen a guard issue what I assume was a zero fare excess without filling in a form. I assume it was a zero fare excess because he said "Fortunately they're the same price" (or words to that effect) and issued something on ticket stock. Perhaps it's a policy that sometimes gets ignored? (Or maybe it was Gadgetman on his last day!)
 

LeylandLen

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Could I suggest, having read through the posts and getting confused at times ! , that the MP for Altrincham , where the person concerned lives , be informed ? He is Tory Graham Brady who has been MP there since 1997 so must know a thing or two about railways given the location of his constituency ?
 

Sprinter153

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I won't dispute your statement that it is policy, but I've seen a guard issue what I assume was a zero fare excess without filling in a form. I assume it was a zero fare excess because he said "Fortunately they're the same price" (or words to that effect) and issued something on ticket stock. Perhaps it's a policy that sometimes gets ignored? (Or maybe it was Gadgetman on his last day!)

At my TOC it's a simple case of filling in a one-line 'explanation for any zero fares' box at the bottom of the shift sheet, and making sure the number of zero fares and non issues is correctly declared. However, many colleagues are nervous about issuing them as they are perceived as a 'bad' thing. I issue at least three or four a week and have never had any problems.
 

plymothian

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Zero excesses are seen as a bad thing by guards and are investigated, which managers hate doing. If done "incorrectly" the TOC loses the fare revenue and the guard probably gets a telling off. They're a mine-field because no one really explains what a "correct" zero excess is.
 

talltim

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For the OP, I'm interested to know if XC/TI realised the mistake they had made by themselves, or whether your solicitor had to point it out to them before they dropped it?
 

yorkie

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Of course there is. Like Abraham Lincoln once said in his famous speech, don't you know everything people write on internet forums is true?

I'd wager most Train Managers haven't done a TIR in their careers.
Believe what you want but I know GadgetMan was in a position to know the official policy. It is a ludicrous policy, but what he says is (or, at least was, until recently) correct.
 

SELW

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SEWL sons here again, I'll try to answer all the points raised.

I have received no compensation (or apology) from the train company.

It appears that train company dropped the prosecution of their own volition. I'm guessing this was progressed mainly by clerical administrators who were just following a process without really understanding what they were doing. It was as the hearing date neared that a prosecutor became involved, and realised that prosecuting someone for buying a £90.00 ticket instead of a £83.30 ticket was rather unreasonable to say the least.

In respect to my costs incurred, they are actually small, probably less than £20 - basically just postage of various letters. I am fortunate in that a family member was able to provide me free professional legal advice. Given the prosecution only went as far as a hearing - where typically pleas would be entered and a trial scheduled - I didn't need to properly instruct a solicitor at that time.

Whilst I feel extremely aggrieved by the actions of the train company. The prospect of seeking compensation by legal action or other means doesn't really seem worth the effort. I imagine I would only receive a small sum (if I was lucky), and this would require significant time, effort, cost and stress to achieve. Frankly I'd rather move on.

Regarding the written recording of ticket buying, the exact wording in the letter is "I am of the opinion that this can be best dealt with by...giving a written reminder to ask any member of staff at a ticket office to provide written instructions regarding the ticket that you wish to purchase in future if this is not immediately clear". Read into that what you will, but to me that suggests a verbal confirmation is no longer sufficient when speaking to train staff. They also continued to tell me to buy an "any permitted" route ticket, which as far as I know doesn't actually exist for this journey.

In terms of Transport Focus I contacted them for advice before the hearing. I can't say I was overly impressed by their actions. They contacted the train company directly to discuss my case which I didn't ask or want them to do. (They happened to have acted after the decision to withdraw the prosecution in any case). Transport Focus then told me incorrectly I should buy two singles instead of a return.

I also contacted both Northern Rail and Cross Country via email to see which ticket I should buy for my journey. Their initial responses were that I should buy two singles. I replied by quoting the NRCOC in response regarding the £0 fare excess. Northern Rail then agreed that a £0 fare excess was correct. Whilst Cross Country told me excesses were to cover mistakes, and that there was no valid ticket for my route.

In terms of raising complaints further, I haven't done anything so far. Again the prospect of further time wasted and stress gained for an unknown outcome doesn't really thrill me. I'll think further on this one.

Any further questions please let me know, otherwise I'll wish you all good holiday period.

Thanks again,
 

gray1404

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I think what you could do now is write a formal complaint to Cross Country covering the entire incident and ask for compensation. Thankfully £20 is not much to cover and even the smallest of award from XC (even if just a Rail Travel Voucher) may be for this. I am not saying though they will award compensation just that you can ask and I think they should! The difference now is that you are comaplining about their failure to issue a zero excess, the way you were treated and that they incorrectly brought a case against you before a court room - rather then there being an legal proceedings pending.

If your complaint to XC is not a good outcome, then go to Transport Focus. Worth a try surely.
 

najaB

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Regarding the written recording of ticket buying, the exact wording in the letter is "I am of the opinion that this can be best dealt with by...giving a written reminder to ask any member of staff at a ticket office to provide written instructions regarding the ticket that you wish to purchase in future if this is not immediately clear". Read into that what you will, but to me that suggests a verbal confirmation is no longer sufficient when speaking to train staff.
Perhaps that is a very badly worded way of saying 'get an itinerary' when you buy your ticket - which isn't bad advice anyway in general for any journey/ticket combo that isn't bleedingly obvious.
 

bb21

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I am not going to enter into the discussion about compensation as for the sake of £20 I hardly think it's worth the additional hassle and £20 is not going to get them to suddenly start taking notice.

I wonder whether it would be feasible to alert the DfT about a possible breach of the TSA (Ticketing and Settlement Agreement) considering how this matter went and the appalling lack of knowledge on ticketing matters demonstrated by XC's representatives.

Oh and btw don't go to Transport Focus for anything requiring specialist knowledge. They are toothless and are as useful and knowledgeable as a packet of crisps. They are only a mediator, not an ombudsman.
 
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