F-35 Fighter Jet costs

[chris89]

We could have but it would have required the Government to get serious about conventional carrier operations (or at least STOBAR if nothing else) which neither colour of government have been since the Second World War.

Sadly that is true and considering how many times the new Carriers have been messed about with. STOBAR Method, is what i imagined would have been the best method, One of the reasons i gave the Russian SU33 and MIG29k as comparison really.

It will be great when the RAF/RN have got the F35 proper, as miss the old Harriers, especially since did live close to Yeovilton many years ago + The village had a Falklands Harrier veteran as well. The video's from the International Air Tattoo of the F35B are great as well.

 

[JamesT]

We could have but it would have required the Government to get serious about conventional carrier operations (or at least STOBAR if nothing else) which neither colour of government have been since the Second World War.

The Coalition government seemed quite keen on the C variant. Unfortunately the carrier manufacturer stiffed us when it came to the possibility of CATOBAR.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/06/defence_committee_carrier_badness?page=1

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps but the one thing I would mention is that Lewis Page is not held in very high regard by a lot of defence commentators.

 

[asylumxl]

I believe Turkey ordered F-35s, but given delays also decided to embark on a home grown plane.

I suppose given the current political climate in Turkey, it's probably preferable Erdogan doesn't have more jets.

 

[TheEdge]

For Naval aircraft, Ashame we couldn't have done something similar with the Eurofighter as the Russians have with the SU33/MIG 29ks.

We could have but it would have required the Government to get serious about conventional carrier operations (or at least STOBAR if nothing else) which neither colour of government have been since the Second World War.

Its not as simple as even that. Yes to operate a modified land based fighter design you would need at least a ski-jump affair with arrested recovery but ideally full CATOBAR on a through flight deck. More importantly is the difficulty in converting an originally land based design for carrier ops.

Unlike things like the F4, F14 or F18 which were designed from day 1 as carrierbourne aircraft land based airframes need an awful lot more modification. The main thing is stress, for CATOBAR it's not as simple as adding a catapult hard point and arrester hook. The entire landing gear needs to be beefed up considerably to deal with the impact forces of a descending aircraft hitting a deck which is coming up to meet it on the waves. That and the take off and landing force is considerable.

Combined with the pathological hatred from the RN/MoD for proper big fleet carriers a carrier based Eurofighter would never have happened.

 

[ainsworth74]

Its not as simple as even that. Yes to operate a modified land based fighter design you would need at least a ski-jump affair with arrested recovery but ideally full CATOBAR on a through flight deck. More importantly is the difficulty in converting an originally land based design for carrier ops.

Unlike things like the F4, F14 or F18 which were designed from day 1 as carrierbourne aircraft land based airframes need an awful lot more modification. The main thing is stress, for CATOBAR it's not as simple as adding a catapult hard point and arrester hook. The entire landing gear needs to be beefed up considerably to deal with the impact forces of a descending aircraft hitting a deck which is coming up to meet it on the waves. That and the take off and landing force is considerable.

Indeed I've also heard that another issue was the location of the jet intakes as some poor sod would have to attach the aircraft to the catapult and traditionally that requires working in almost exactly the same place as the intakes are located on a Typhoon.

Throw enough money at the problem and you could make a Typhoon fly from a carrier (though whether it would be as good as something from the ground up is questionable even then). Far more sensible, if we had decided to go down the CATOBAR route, would be to buy off the shelf either the F/A-18 or the F-35C or I suppose the Rafael but that would have been interesting politically

 

[chris89]

Indeed I've also heard that another issue was the location of the jet intakes as some poor sod would have to attach the aircraft to the catapult and traditionally that requires working in almost exactly the same place as the intakes are located on a Typhoon.

Throw enough money at the problem and you could make a Typhoon fly from a carrier (though whether it would be as good as something from the ground up is questionable even then). Far more sensible, if we had decided to go down the CATOBAR route, would be to buy off the shelf either the F/A-18 or the F-35C or I suppose the Rafael but that would have been interesting politically

Same with all things throwing money at it :P But what did read about the Naval Eurofighter, the extra weight and everything else would have made it pretty pointless.

Only if the Saab JAS39 Gripen had a carrier version :P But would agree the Super Hornet or C model of the F35 would be best choices, if we had a normal carrier. How about through in the option of the MIGs :P

 

[asylumxl]

Same with all things throwing money at it [emoji14] But what did read about the Naval Eurofighter, the extra weight and everything else would have made it pretty pointless.

Only if the Saab JAS39 Gripen had a carrier version [emoji14] But would agree the Super Hornet or C model of the F35 would be best choices, if we had a normal carrier. How about through in the option of the MIGs :P

I'd be up for the latter. Despite the cost and material constraints, the MiGs have always been impressive aircraft.

 

[Harbornite]

I'd be up for the latter. Despite the cost and material constraints, the MiGs have always been impressive aircraft.

The mig 29 is a classic but the RAF buying Russian aircraft would be political suicide.

 

[asylumxl]

The mig 29 is a classic but the RAF buying Russian aircraft would be political suicide.

Ain't no shame buying from.Mikoyan. they have a long and rich history.

 

[TheEdge]

I'm not saying we should look at the Shenyang J-15 but we should!

 

[Harbornite]

Ain't no shame buying from.Mikoyan. they have a long and rich history.

The Foxbat is a beast. As for 29, We should leave the last word with the Luftwaffe, the only Western airforce to operate said aircraft, just for a brief period after the reunification of Deutschland.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Say what you will about the Russians, the Mig 31 is a real brute of an aircraft. Not as pretty as the F16 or even the F35, but it still looks good.

 

[asylumxl]

The Foxbat is a beast. As for 29, We should leave the last word with the Luftwaffe, the only Western airforce to operate said aircraft, just for a brief period after the reunification of Deutschland.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Say what you will about the Russians, the Mig 31 is a real brute of an aircraft. Not as pretty as the F16 or even the F35, but it still looks good.

Gimme a MiG-29 OVT and I'd be happy.

 

[Harbornite]

Gimme a MiG-29 OVT and I'd be happy.

I don't want to stir up a hornet's net, but if Jezza Corblin does become PM (he won't) then I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to replace all British and European aircraft in the RAF with Migs, Yaks and Tupolevs (if he doesn't scrap the RAF, army and Navy altogether0. However, unlike his idol, Corblin won't be sticking the bossES of any Russian aircraft manufacturers in prison.







(Disclaimer: this isn't a serious post)

 

[DarloRich]

and to think we developed the Harrier in this country....................

( which the government killed off in the name of saving a few quid!)

 

[Monty]

Sadly that is true and considering how many times the new Carriers have been messed about with. STOBAR Method, is what i imagined would have been the best method, One of the reasons i gave the Russian SU33 and MIG29k as comparison really.

It will be great when the RAF/RN have got the F35 proper, as miss the old Harriers, especially since did live close to Yeovilton many years ago + The village had a Falklands Harrier veteran as well. The video's from the International Air Tattoo of the F35B are great as well.

STOBAR is a utterly dreadful concept for aircraft carrier operation, you do realise the Russian SU-33s and MiG-29Ks sortie rates are measured in minutes rather than hours? They are not able to take off with a full fuel load and that their weapon loads are also severely restricted. The Russian 'carriers' (they are actually classed as aircraft carrying cruisers and we're designed to carry a huge arsenal of anti ship missiles) only had aircraft for air defence of the fleet and virtually no strike role.

STOBAR has all the disadvantages of STOVL and none of the advantages of CTOL. On the flip side while the STOVL carriers do have their downsides the F-35B they will carry will have a greater endurance and weapons payloads than the Russian carrier. Even the Chinese and Indians who operate Russian designed carriers are merely using them as a stop gap until they can build their own catapult equipped carriers.

Ideally it would have been preferable to press ahead with equipping the QE class carriers with catapults but the cost of modifying the flight deck and upgrading the power supply to accommodate them was deemed to be vastly more expensive than initially imagined. Also when we made the U turn on what variant to buy the B model was in real trouble, now there are no such problems and ironically was the first variant to be declared operational.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm trying to remember how many countries have ordered F35s (of any variant), I've got Canada, Australia, UK USA. Are the first two correct?

Come to think of it, hasn't Canada cancelled its orders?

Don't forget Israel.