Euston Scrum!!! is there a solution?

[Bletchleyite]

I thought it was based on the working timetable of which platform it is booked on rather than just a 'guess'

I'm pretty sure I read it was based on which platform that train had actually used most over an unspecified period of time. Could be wrong though.

For further discussion on this: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-does-realtime-trains-predict-platforms.205088/

 

[Starmill]

That isn't the reason (or rather would only make a difference of about 1 minute), and indeed doesn't apply to LNR services at all (for which it's worst, as nobody has a reserved seat)

It plainly is a reason for what I was drawing on it as evidence for: platforms could be announced earlier than they are without changing anything about the current operations. Solutions which actually do change the operations are still necessary in addition, though.

To put it another way: the operator lacks incentive to improve the advertisement of platforms.

 

[CrispyUK]

Out of interest, is it possible to turnaround a Pendolino without locking the doors? I don't see any reason why the staff need the train to themsleves if they're just performing a quick clean and litter pick.

I would imagine it is far quicker and more effective to litter pick an empty train, no navigating around passengers and their luggage, no trying to work out if food/drink/newspapers on the tables belong to the new passengers or were left behind by the last lot, no feet all over the place making it hard to see/pick rubbish from the floors, easy to identify any left behind luggage and belongings.

I’m not sure of the extent of cleaning on a turnaround, but again far easier to wipe tables down for example if they’re free of items and not surrounded by passengers.

It also gives the advantage of presenting a clean train to those boarding

 

[AngusH]

Possibly borrowing the old Kings Cross scheme of designated, per train, queuing lines?

Get people to queue in roughly the right area and then move directly to the train in order.


(I don't think they do this at Euston already do they?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

(I don't think they do this at Euston already do they?)

No. It pops up on the board and everyone runs at the same time.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Obviously there are set diagrams , station working books and a plan that gives something like 30 mins turnrounds for "EBW" services (West Midlands origin) , and about 45 mins for longer distances services from Scotland /North West etc. Trains interwork within service groups for good reasons on stock balancing for maintenance , such that an up Liverpool might form a down Glasgow etc , and vice versa.

Obvious protocols for servicing in platforms dependant on origin and previous workings - some sets need more attention internally than others - but it can be a nightmare when inwards late running can mess the plan up - whence "stepping up" and reforming the service is needed , to align with crews and servicing is a challenge. Urgent stuff like getting some water into the tanks is a key element if the outwards goes to Glasgow say.......

These are all old issues ....but it explains sometimes how what seems perverse behaviour , is driven by a host of other things. Can be hard work - and tougher than an inwards Tring (say) - making an outwards MKC semi !

 

[Fokx]

On the 30th November last year I travelled from Euston to Liverpool on a morning service that was in high demand for Liverpool FC home fans (I wasn't going to the game), and before the scrum for that very packed train there was a lot of uncertainty on which platform the service would get, with RTT fluctuating between around 3 different ones until it was given a platform. What was interesting though is quite a few other passengers must have been familiar with the site as when I was wandering atop the concourse a good few others were doing the same, but not in a way that suggested they were all just copying 1 person's behaviour, while I overheard one of the station staff say it won't be a given platform (I think 15) when RTT was suggesting that platform while walking past its entrance.

There’s several apps widely available for free, including exclusively JUST for London Euston, this is what regular passengers and the general public usually use when you see this happening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some staff don't like people using RTT (which isn't entirely unreasonable) and will try to convince people it isn't correct even when they know full well that it is. It's a difficult one for them too, as there's no physical prevention of access - the gates get reopened immediately after departure and left open. Surprises me that they don't close them (8-11 excepted) once the train has unloaded.

 

[Ianno87]

I thought it was based on the working timetable of which platform it is booked on rather than just a 'guess'

Platforms are based on WTT. Estimated timings are based on historic runs.

 

[Ianno87]

Some staff don't like people using RTT (which isn't entirely unreasonable) and will try to convince people it isn't correct even when they know full well that it is. It's a difficult one for them too, as there's no physical prevention of access - the gates get reopened immediately after departure and left open. Surprises me that they don't close them (8-11 excepted) once the train has unloaded.

If you use it like I do, the polite thing to do is at least to wait at the very top of the ramp on the concourse, not on the platform itself. That's usually enough to still be one of the early boarders.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you use it like I do, the polite thing to do is at least to wait at the very top of the ramp on the concourse, not on the platform itself. That's usually enough to still be one of the early boarders.

If it's an Avanti service I do that, as I wouldn't want to be seen to circumvent the boarding check. If it's an LNR service I go onto the platform as there are near enough never boarding controls (LNR barrier checks at Euston, other than the 8-11 gates, are near enough only ever on exit, and that's on the rare occasion that the RPI team gets bored of Brum and fancies a day out). Particularly if it's 8-11, as it's acceptable to be on those platforms anyway, e.g. LO service platforms are never suppressed.

I know some staff don't even like you doing that and give you dirty looks, though, and I've been told off for waiting near (to the side of, so not in the way) a barrier at Paddington, to which I told him I was in a public area and would not be moving, at which point he gave up, opened the barrier and let me in! Never had that at Euston, though.

 

[Furrball]

A frrustration (certainly in the past) was the whole half a****d approach to the closing of platform doors. E.g waiting for the train from P15 but the gates to P13 are open and no one manning them so people would just ignore the queue and head down that way

 

[Bletchleyite]

A frrustration (certainly in the past) was the whole half a****d approach to the closing of platform doors. E.g waiting for the train from P15 but the gates to P13 are open and no one manning them so people would just ignore the queue and head down that way

Part of this is because there is in my understanding no agreement between Avanti and WMT for revenue, so the gates can't be closed if an LNR service is due because there will be nobody there to open them. LNR's revenue protection at Euston is somewhat "half a****d", as you put it, largely because they seem to prefer to do it at the outer stations, most of which are gated - presumably that's a lot easier as volumes of passengers are lower and they aren't in a hurry in the same way.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

When the old concourse was there , they used to make people queue in lines by using a lettering system... Just about always seemed to work whenever i encountered it

I don't remember that at Euston, only ever at King's Cross?

 

[joncombe]

It seems telling most of the public they are not allowed to travel by train anymore (but vastly more of their money - tax payers money - has to be used to subsidise the railway to run mostly empty trains) has resolved the scrum problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems telling most of the public they are not allowed to travel by train anymore (but vastly more of their money - tax payers money - has to be used to subsidise the railway to run mostly empty trains) has resolved the scrum problem.

Well, er, the scrum is caused by large numbers of people boarding at once, so that's kind of a given

 

[Mikey C]

Chiltern, when services are from the far platforms at Marylebone, get people to go through the barriers and walk to a boarding zone "A" which is nearer platforms 4,5 and 6 and thus a shorter walk as there's only a short time being the platform being announced and the departure time.

Really confused me the first time I saw it though!

 

[Clip]

I don't remember that at Euston, only ever at King's Cross?

Apologies i thought i had written kings cross but apparently not! post amended

 

[Belperpete]

One problem with some of the suggested solutions, such as allowing people to wait on the platforms, would be when a train is replatformed, perhaps to use a different set. Getting a whole trainload of passengers back through the barriers, back up the ramp and down to another train could take a very long time. Leading to significant delay to the outgoing service, and consequent problems.

 

[Belperpete]

Yes - but there still is a rush for the plane , as obviously everyone has a seat , but they "have" to get their cabin baggage into a convenient rack space. Especially as their carry-on bags are usually just about inside parameters and heaven forbid that it might be a couple of metres from their allocated seat. Off topic a bit - but noticeable. Seconds count in getting off at the other end.....

Agreed. I usually put my bags in the rack above the seats opposite, much easier to get at them than if in the rack above your seat. However, some people give you very black looks for using "their space". Likewise, as I walk up the plane, if the racks near my seat look though they might be full, I just put my bag in the first available rack space on the way there. Causes much less delay than getting to your seat, and then wondering where you are going to put your bag, and having to move back against the flow.

 

[route101]

Noticed the people running for the pendo are often trying to bag free table seats perhaps in the ureserved coach.

Glasgow Central has been more mixed . Few times ive been surpised and theyve allowed boarding 25 to 30 mins before departure , other times theres a queue and ticket check at P1/2. TPE are the worst , boarding a few mins before departure.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is, but it's nowhere near as bad as it was pre-allocated seating - it was very visible to me because I was using the same flights weekly (Monday EZY 2051 0625/0725 Luton-Geneva and the Thursday evening 6pm-ish EZY 2062 back)

Ah, I’m a 2049 / 2068 man myself...

Back on topic. The solution, obviously, is to run more high capacity services into Euston to spread the load, with a much bigger and better concourse, with better access routes to the trains. If only someone could build that...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, I’m a 2049 / 2068 man myself...

Back on topic. The solution, obviously, is to run more high capacity services into Euston to spread the load, with a much bigger and better concourse, with better access routes to the trains. If only someone could build that...

Erm, they are doing, aren't they? Namely HS2.

HS2 won't, however, prevent the scrum in last-minute boarding of LNR services.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Cynical me thinks Network Rail are more than happy to herd people up like cattle on the concourse because that is where the money is made by the retailers, who in turn pay a percentage of their profits to NR, standing passengers on a gloomy warehouse feeling platform at Euston whilst well intentioned is just not going to be entertained sadly.

 

[Jonny]

This sounds to me like an easy and , at least partial, fix
The issue I see with putting people on the platform before the train is ready are two fold.
Firstly that tanking would have to be completed first because of trip hazzards, and secondly
one idiot on the platform pushing a cleaner of other member of staff out of the way could easily cause a cancellation and undo any benefits

Does tanking still occur at stations? Are there even the facilities at Euston and similar stations?

 

[London Trains]

Erm, they are doing, aren't they? Namely HS2.

HS2 won't, however, prevent the scrum in last-minute boarding of LNR services.

It however may reduce it greatly, since more LNR services will be able to run.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I understand that there's a safety issue with having people on board when doing so (though I don't wholly understand why this is the case at Euston and not Northampton, and it may be best just to find a way to solve this issue if possible).

I rather fail to get it as 450s, identical in most ways to 350s are joined and split around the LSW network with passengers on board, and splitting/merging sets is common practice in other European countries with passengers on board. If anything, merging sets is safer than splitting.

 

[Bald Rick]

Cynical me thinks Network Rail are more than happy to herd people up like cattle on the concourse because that is where the money is made by the retailers, who in turn pay a percentage of their profits to NR, standing passengers on a gloomy warehouse feeling platform at Euston whilst well intentioned is just not going to be entertained sadly.

Pretty unlikely, given that NR has removed some (very lucrative) retail to make more space for waiting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pretty unlikely, given that NR has removed some (very lucrative) retail to make more space for waiting.

And it's pretty clear that those on the concourse aren't (unlike in airports) spending money in the shops, they're standing poised to run the second the platform appears.

Solving the problem (by some of the mechanisms, such as later reservation availability so you can reserve on an existing walk-up ticket from your phone before you head to the station or even on arrival there) would make people more willing to spend money in retail.

I mentioned easyJet above - when it was open boarding I'd find the monitor closest to the gates to stand at poised. Now you book your seat, I wait for boarding to come up, then saunter down, use the loo, and queue up at my leisure.

Reservations don't have to be compulsory for that to work. They just need to be available to everyone other than the very last-minute walk-ups. Even better if there is a facility to cancel them (and a motivation to do so, e.g. a £2 charge for them but £1 back if cancelled before departure) so they aren't wasted.

 

[221129]

Does tanking still occur at stations? Are there even the facilities at Euston and similar stations?

Yes...