EMR intercity - potential timetable improvements?

[CaptainHaddock]

Moderator note: split from

EMR intercity - As bad as xc?

EMR intercity - As bad as xc? Discuss. The trains are crowded, far to short and getting quite tatty yet EMR seem to escape the criticism fired at XC for the same things. How come? Today I have to use EMR to get to Nottingham and the trains are rammed packed

www.railforums.co.uk

Northants is a identity crisis county, for trains & ambulance its East Midlands (well the MML at least) but water is anglia water, regardless you just have to see the oppinons of those in Wellingborough they feel short changed by the connect still paying intercity prices for commuter trains. I do wonder if EMR see Kettering as a operational inconvenience hence only calling the Nottinghams, it should rotate between a Sheffield & Nottingham. If you want Luton Airport you have to change twice living Long Eaton northwards.

It does seem that EMR are obsessed with the idea that everyone only wants to go to London and no one travels between intermediate stations.

At present EMR run two trains an hour from Sheffield to London, one “fast” calling at just Chesterfield, Derby and Leicester, the other “semi-fast” calling at all stops as far as Leicester but then both run non-stop to St Pancras. To me it would make far more sense to keep the “fast” but have the “semi-fast” calling additionally at Kettering and Luton as this would open up journeys to other intermediate stations with just one change instead of two or three. This could be facilitated by removing the calls at Long Eaton (which isn’t really an intercity station) and East Midlands Parkway (which hardly anyone uses).

 

[A S Leib]

This could be facilitated by removing the calls at Long Eaton (which isn’t really an intercity station)

Would Long Eaton need to keep a Leicester service (15,000 passengers per year vs 25k for St. Pancras, 60k for Nottingham and 43k for Derby)?

 

[MCR247]

To me it would make far more sense to keep the “fast” but have the “semi-fast” calling additionally at Kettering and Luton as this would open up journeys to other intermediate stations with just one change instead of two or three. This could be facilitated by removing the calls at Long Eaton (which isn’t really an intercity station) and East Midlands Parkway (which hardly anyone uses).

Except it couldn’t - have you used the MML recently? The timetable barely works as is, with Sheffields catching up to 360s and the Nottinghams then catching up with the Sheffields.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Except it couldn’t - have you used the MML recently? The timetable barely works as is, with Sheffields catching up to 360s and the Nottinghams then catching up with the Sheffields.

As a former train planner, I'm sure there are ways of means of reworking the timetable, not least by omitting a couple of stops earlier in the journey, hence my idea of cutting out calls at Long Eaton and East Midlands Parkway. And isn't the MML 4 track for much of the section south of Kettering?

Once the will is there. it should be possible to find some robust paths.

 

[JonathanH]

EMR consulted on the timetable before it was introduced. They indicated that attempts to change the stopping pattern between St Pancras and Leicester in the Sheffield service had not been feasible meaning that Kettering and Market Harborough were served by the Nottingham services.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...se-won-by-abellio.180915/page-52#post-4301302 and https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-december-2020-timetable-consultation.195505/

 

[stevieinselby]

As a former train planner, I'm sure there are ways of means of reworking the timetable, not least by omitting a couple of stops earlier in the journey, hence my idea of cutting out calls at Long Eaton and East Midlands Parkway. And isn't the MML 4 track for much of the section south of Kettering?

There are some very restrictive speeds on parts of the slow lines between Kettering and Bedford, which means that I believe the Connect services generally use the fast lines for most of that section. And south of Bedford, of course, the slow lines are chock full of Thameslink trains.

 

[MCR247]

As a former train planner, I'm sure there are ways of means of reworking the timetable, not least by omitting a couple of stops earlier in the journey, hence my idea of cutting out calls at Long Eaton and East Midlands Parkway. And isn't the MML 4 track for much of the section south of Kettering?

Once the will is there. it should be possible to find some robust paths.

So the current train planners have said it isn’t feasible but they were lying or mistaken?

EDIT: I just find it hard to believe that there will suddenly be room for a Luton stop on the fasts in this era where EMR seem to have to work around what fits for Thameslink services rather than the other way around

 

[London Trains]

I fully agree on removing stops from East Midlands Parkway, the station is frankly a bit useless and I don't think it justifies anything more than the Leicester to Nottingham stopper serving it, but if it really does need an "intercity" service then 1tph is more than enough.

However, if an intercity service is necessary then it is probably preferable for the Sheffield service to stop as opposed to the Nottingham, as the Nottingham link is retained by the aforementioned stopper.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

So the current train planners have said it isn’t feasible but they were lying or mistaken?

Not feasible doesn't mean impossible.

 

[NCT]

EMR has one of the better timetable structures out of all the inter-city TOCs.

Like it or not London flows generate by far the most revenue, so any attempts at attracting non-London flows should not be at London flows' expense.

Both the Nottingham pair and the Sheffield pair per hour are 30 minutes apart at St Pancras and 20/40 apart at Sheffield or Nottingham. This means both trains are useful and as a passenger you wouldn't ordinary time yourself for one train but not the other in the hour. If the slow train has any more stops then the two trains become more unevenly spaced. The timetable pattern is exactly half hourly south of Leicester and that's a good thing.

EMR inter-city also (largely) avoids the dreaded skip stopping, meaning you can always travel between adjacent stations at sensible frequencies. The Nottinghams stop at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, and they connect well at Kettering the with the Connect. One of the Nottinghams is then all principal stations north of Leicester; and similarly one of the Sheffields.

It is a compromise that from Sheffield (and Chester and Derby), getting to Luton Airport involves changing twice, but both Leicester and Kettering have good connection times and this journey is available every half an hour throughout the day. To me this is preferable to having more direct origin-destination pairings but at lower frequencies, skip-stopping and a less robust timetable.

 

[Topological]

Could all this be solved by having Sheffield to Luton Airport tickets that allowed connection at London St Pancras? I am thinking similar to advances where they become invalid if starting/ending short (therefore would not work the barriers at St Pancras)

 

[NCT]

Could all this be solved by having Sheffield to Luton Airport tickets that allowed connection at London St Pancras? I am thinking similar to advances where they become invalid if starting/ending short (therefore would not work the barriers at St Pancras)

That would use up two lots of high-yield critical load sections. EMR would rather a 'genuine' Leicester - London passenger take up that capacity as that passenger is more likely to pay a higher fare.

 

[Topological]

That would use up two lots of high-yield critical load sections. EMR would rather a 'genuine' Leicester - London passenger take up that capacity as that passenger is more likely to pay a higher fare.

I was assuming they would count against the availability of advances on Leicester to London (not that I know what that availability is these days)

 

[MCR247]

Not feasible doesn't mean impossible.

This is true, I was probably too harsh. I just find it hard to believe that there will suddenly be room for a Luton stop on the fasts in this era where EMR seem to have to work around what fits for Thameslink services rather than the other way around

 

[JonathanH]

This is true, I was probably too harsh. I just find it hard to believe that there will suddenly be room for a Luton stop on the fasts in this era where EMR seem to have to work around what fits for Thameslink services rather than the other way around

Surely Thameslink works around the EMR services as well? Thameslink are only able to stop half hourly on the fast at West Hampstead Thameslink, rather than on all 4tph. Certain faster services have to use platform 1 at St Albans and cross at Radlett rather than Harpenden to accommodate EMR perturbations.

 

[MCR247]

Surely Thameslink works around the EMR services as well? Thameslink are only able to stop half hourly on the fast at West Hampstead Thameslink, rather than on all 4tph. Certain faster services have to use platform 1 at St Albans and cross at Radlett rather than Harpenden to accommodate EMR perturbations.

This is more the kind of thing I meant:

THE BATTLE OF BEDFORD

Major timetable changes on the Midland main line in May have...

www.modernrailways.com

THAMESLINK IMPACT

At the same time concerns were emerging around how East Midlands Trains services would interwork with the more-intensive Thameslink service to be introduced in May 2018. Although the phased introduction of Thameslink services, originally proposed by Chris Gibb’s Thameslink Industry Readiness Board (IRB), sees these services gradually ramp up to 24 trains per hour (tph) by December 2019, nearly all the services originating on the MML are introduced this May.

As we began reporting last year, concerns were raised that the impact on the MML timetable could see Sheffield to London journey times increased by as much as 12 minutes and Nottingham to London by nearly 10 minutes. This came in the context of work by EMT and Network Rail to increase linespeeds on the MML, which saw journey times cut in December 2013, bringing Sheffield to London fast services down to a near two-hour journey time throughout the day.

It’s a very interesting much longer article that I’d recommend

 

[43074]

EMR has one of the better timetable structures out of all the inter-city TOCs.

Like it or not London flows generate by far the most revenue, so any attempts at attracting non-London flows should not be at London flows' expense.

Both the Nottingham pair and the Sheffield pair per hour are 30 minutes apart at St Pancras and 20/40 apart at Sheffield or Nottingham. This means both trains are useful and as a passenger you wouldn't ordinary time yourself for one train but not the other in the hour. If the slow train has any more stops then the two trains become more unevenly spaced. The timetable pattern is exactly half hourly south of Leicester and that's a good thing.

EMR inter-city also (largely) avoids the dreaded skip stopping, meaning you can always travel between adjacent stations at sensible frequencies. The Nottinghams stop at Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, and they connect well at Kettering the with the Connect. One of the Nottinghams is then all principal stations north of Leicester; and similarly one of the Sheffields.

It is a compromise that from Sheffield (and Chester and Derby), getting to Luton Airport involves changing twice, but both Leicester and Kettering have good connection times and this journey is available every half an hour throughout the day. To me this is preferable to having more direct origin-destination pairings but at lower frequencies, skip-stopping and a less robust timetable.

Would definitely agree with this - the half hourly service pattern from St Pancras to all of Sheffield/Nottingham and Corby are really quite neat. But it's very fragile from a performance point of view in both directions, northbound the Sheffield services catch up the Corby by Wellingborough, southbound if the Sheffield is late by Wellingborough it wipes out both the following Corby and Nottingham services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2025 ==

Surely Thameslink works around the EMR services as well? Thameslink are only able to stop half hourly on the fast at West Hampstead Thameslink, rather than on all 4tph. Certain faster services have to use platform 1 at St Albans and cross at Radlett rather than Harpenden to accommodate EMR perturbations.

EMR's timetable south of Bedford is almost completely derived from Thameslink - that's why EMRs May 2018 timetable was so clunky compared to what ran before as it was an awkward fit between the new structure at the south end and integrating it with XC etc further north. The West Hampstead calls put the Bedford TL services at 14/16 intervals north of St Albans, which sounds a very subtle detail but the freight paths on the slows fit in the 16 minute gaps.

 

[Palmerston]

If HS2 East existed i.e. if the quickest Sheffield and Nottingham trains went to a new Euston, what was the plan for running trains on the MML? Was it ever set out?

 

[MCR247]

If HS2 East existed i.e. if the quickest Sheffield and Nottingham trains went to a new Euston, what was the plan for running trains on the MML? Was it ever set out?

Were Nottingham trains going onto HS2? I thought it was a Toton stop for Nottingham and Derby. I’d imagine this would leave a fair bit of demand for a slower cheaper MML service from both cities still

 

[JamesT]

Were Nottingham trains going onto HS2? I thought it was a Toton stop for Nottingham and Derby. I’d imagine this would leave a fair bit of demand for a slower cheaper MML service from both cities still

The original HS2 East was a new station at Toton and carrying on to Sheffield. The cutback version from 2021 (Boris Johnson era) instead terminated the Eastern leg at East Midlands Parkway, HS2 services would then continue along the legacy network and be able to call directly at Nottingham and Derby.

 

[MCR247]

The original HS2 East was a new station at Toton and carrying on to Sheffield. The cutback version from 2021 (Boris Johnson era) instead terminated the Eastern leg at East Midlands Parkway, HS2 services would then continue along the legacy network and be able to call directly at Nottingham and Derby.

Ah I see, hard to keep up with all the nonesense!

 

[baz962]

Southbound is slightly different to Northbound in that going North the Sheffield catches the Corby and the Nottingham catches the Sheffield. Going Southbound the Nottinghams are behind the 360 and sometimes even waiting outside Luton Airport Parkway for the 360 to leave. Time wise i reckon the Nottinghams could stop at Luton Airport Parkway if everything is on time , but I think it's a capacity issue as in too many would pile on for London. In fact the last Nottingham to st Pancras does stop at Airport Parkway and one or two InterCity do at other times.