Employer led culture

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You should see some of the stuff that comes out of our Big Cheese's office. Poor spelling and grammar is not the preserve of the young.

I know that I retired four years ago from the consultancy, but being in the senior position that I held there and being one who was insistent on correct phraseology and the correct grammatical terms being used in correspondence in both contracts and in inter-office memorandum notifications, I confess to being in despair when I read your post. Those who have known me on this website for some time will attest to my views on such matters.

Management of any level should lead by example.

 

[455driver]

Management of any level should lead by example.

Bearing in mind a lot of 'Management' have never done any of the jobs that their staff do, how can they lead by example, they dont have a clue!

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Bearing in mind a lot of 'Management' have never done any of the jobs that their staff do, how can they lead by example, they dont have a clue!

That is a very good point and frequently overlooked these days when an MBA is seen as an adequate substitute. I would add another little word to your sentence, I'd place 'well' between 'jobs' and 'that'! Far too many on the race to the top are not necessarily good at their job!

 

[Butts]

Bearing in mind a lot of 'Management' have never done any of the jobs that their staff do, how can they lead by example, they dont have a clue!

Let me reverse that scenario - I worked in an Industry where the worst Managers with regard to treatment of staff were those who had worked their way up through the ranks.

Those coming in from the outside were far more considerate and accommodating and better Managers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bearing in mind a lot of 'Management' have never done any of the jobs that their staff do, how can they lead by example, they dont have a clue!

Not a crime that I can stand accused of in all my long period in Senior Management, as I think that you are aware from past discussions of the tenet that I held that all people are valued members of the company...not just "numbers".
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Let me reverse that scenario - I worked in an Industry where the worst Managers with regard to treatment of staff were those who had worked their way up through the ranks.

Those coming in from the outside were far more considerate and accommodating and better Managers.

Indeed, I can attest to the truth of this, unfortunately.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm always reminded of this cartoon when talking about management.

I don't necessarily think that you have to have done a job to manage people doing a job, but you do need to have enough empathy to understand the pressures of that job. Empathy is something that seems to be lacking in a lot of senior management that I meet in my work, and that's entirely separate from experience.

People who've worked their way up can often be a bit chippy, as they see themselves as earning a promotion from excellence and if you don't do it exactly as they did then you're an idiot. But then the grads straight out of their MBA can be just as chippy, they've learned everything they need to know in college and if you didn't go to college too then you're an idiot.

Sadly you often have to trample over others to get the very top jobs, and that means you never get senior managers who have the interpersonal skills required to maintain a positive reputation. They do "lead by example" though- they're nasty flat-track bullies and so their middle managers take on the same personality.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't necessarily think that you have to have done a job to manage people doing a job, but you do need to have enough empathy to understand the pressures of that job. Empathy is something that seems to be lacking in a lot of senior management that I meet in my work, and that's entirely separate from experience.

Sadly you often have to trample over others to get the very top jobs, and that means you never get senior managers who have the interpersonal skills required to maintain a positive reputation. They do "lead by example" though- they're nasty flat-track bullies and so their middle managers take on the same personality.

Please, please, please, do not tar ALL senior management with the brush that you wield with so much vigour. Did you read any of my recent postings upon this thread. I have emboldened two particular items in your posting where I most certainly take umbrage.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Please, please, please, do not tar ALL senior management with the brush that you wield with so much vigour.

I don't tar everyone, but I can only speak from experience. We have a Big Cheese at the moment who is sacking everyone streamlining the business whilst awarding himself a 10% pay rise. He genuinely can't understand why the staff aren't buying into "The Vision".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't tar everyone, but I can only speak from experience. We have a Big Cheese at the moment who is sacking everyone streamlining the business whilst awarding himself a 10% pay rise. He genuinely can't understand why the staff aren't buying into "The Vision".

In that case, I extend my deepest sympathy to you.

 

[Butts]

I don't tar everyone, but I can only speak from experience. We have a Big Cheese at the moment who is sacking everyone streamlining the business whilst awarding himself a 10% pay rise. He genuinely can't understand why the staff aren't buying into "The Vision".[/QUOTE]

Sounds suspiciously related to "Mission Statements" which no one not even the authors really believe in

 

[Tom B]

Let me reverse that scenario - I worked in an Industry where the worst Managers with regard to treatment of staff were those who had worked their way up through the ranks.

Those coming in from the outside were far more considerate and accommodating and better Managers.

It was remarked in the report into the King's Cross fire that promoting staff internally based on seniority resulted in a situation where an employee could just plod along, waiting his time, and be made up to a supervisor grade purely because he'd been there longest - not that he was competent.

There are many situations in which many years experience will help a manager - they need not be in exactly the same job, but something where you can empathise and have sufficient grounding to pick up anything specialist. Arguably the manager ought to be able to do the job, although perhaps not to the same ability as somebody who does it all the time - but that depends on the job and the manager's job, as in some circumstances it may be expected that a certain amount of time is spent doing routine work.

 

[muz379]

I don't tar everyone, but I can only speak from experience. We have a Big Cheese at the moment who is sacking everyone streamlining the business whilst awarding himself a 10% pay rise. He genuinely can't understand why the staff aren't buying into "The Vision".

In my last job we had a new big cheese take over(not a young guy either ) who was also into "streamlining" he decided to take 10% of our staff hours away and simultaneously demand a better output . Basically meaning all of the managers (of which I was one )had to pull ridiculous amounts of unpaid overtime to try and make it happen .Whilst this was going on he then decided to take 3 of our experienced staff members who between them had about 20 yrs service , and replace them with fresh off the streets trainees . Fortunately I wasnt there long enough to feel the true effects however from speaking to previous workmates he is still there trying to make a name for himself .

 

[Nym]

Sounds like some of my old managers...

 

[muz379]

Sounds like some of my old managers...

when it was put to him that his managers where pulling overtime and not being paid/getting time back his response was "as long as I dont know about it and you dont clock those hours I dont care "

About that time I stepped up my pace in the search for a new job .

I didn't mind pulling the odd bit of unpaid OT to cover staff sickness or something genuinely going wrong,like the day we had a power cut and I needed to use the computer to do something before I left , but it was becoming the norm and I couldn't abide by that .

 

[455driver]

Not a crime that I can stand accused of in all my long period in Senior Management, as I think that you are aware from past discussions of the tenet that I held that all people are valued members of the company...not just "numbers".

I wasnt meaning to tar everyone with the same brush (although it reads like it ), a lot of Managers will put the effort in to learn the basics (at least) of all the staffs jobs under their leadership, so they can have some understanding, its the ones that just assume they know best that get my goat!

Edit-
Just read your later posts Paul and I agree with them (and you) whole heartedly, a good Manager will normally use the carrot approach and only use the stick when absolutely necessary.
Respect is earned through actions, this is something a lot of 'new' Managers dont realise but it can be earned very easily if 'they' put a bit of effort in!
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In my last job we had a new big cheese take over(not a young guy either ) who was also into "streamlining" he decided to take 10% of our staff hours away and simultaneously demand a better output . Basically meaning all of the managers (of which I was one )had to pull ridiculous amounts of unpaid overtime to try and make it happen .Whilst this was going on he then decided to take 3 of our experienced staff members who between them had about 20 yrs service , and replace them with fresh off the streets trainees . Fortunately I wasnt there long enough to feel the true effects however from speaking to previous workmates he is still there trying to make a name for himself .

I am sure the staff have several for him!

 

[muz379]

I wasnt meaning to tar everyone with the same brush (although it reads like it ), a lot of Managers will put the effort in to learn the basics (at least) of all the staffs jobs under their leadership, so they can have some understanding, its the ones that just assume they know best that get my goat!

Yeah , I was once in a position managing some staff whose job id never done .

I spent one afternoon going out with one of them seeing their world , It was an insight and in future when they where on the phone telling me something was impossible I truly understood why and how .

I invited the staff to come into the office I worked in for an afternoon and see how our world worked , some of them took it up , others took the I do my job and you do yours mentality which is fine .

But the net result was a lot more respect from them , and I had a lot more respect for the work they did . Whenever they rang the office about something if I didnt answer I would be the first person they ask to speak to .
I get a heck of a lot more respect off them than my line manager got and all because I took one afternoon out to see what they did .
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I am sure the staff have several for him!

Oh they had some names for him , a few managers also decided to tell him what they thought in person , He knew he was disliked. I think he thrived off that more than anything .

Me I was always civil , ever aware that I might need a reference from him at some point in the near future .

 

[43021HST]

Empathy for your fellow man goes a long way, but it can be a burden too. I've got a friend who was promoted to become the store manager for B&Q, he said he liked it, was well liked by the staff and enjoyed the job until the top brass came down and asked him too put names forward for redundancy.

He put his own name forward as in his words he 'didn't want to play politics'. I suppose that's why some managers develop a lack of empathy in case they have to start letting people go.

 

[Abpj17]

There are also some careers - and the rail network may be one - where many of the employees may have a technical background and are promoted based on that...and then struggle / are considered awful if they aren't naturally skilled in dealing with people!

 

[radamfi]

There are also some careers - and the rail network may be one - where many of the employees may have a technical background and are promoted based on that...and then struggle / are considered awful if they aren't naturally skilled in dealing with people!

Those people may be better off doing contracting.

 

[muz379]

Empathy for your fellow man goes a long way, but it can be a burden too. I've got a friend who was promoted to become the store manager for B&Q, he said he liked it, was well liked by the staff and enjoyed the job until the top brass came down and asked him too put names forward for redundancy.

He put his own name forward as in his words he 'didn't want to play politics'. I suppose that's why some managers develop a lack of empathy in case they have to start letting people go.

I suppose , Ive never been in a situation as a manager where I had to recommend anybody for redundancies . But Id like to think if voluntary redundancies where not taken up I would have been able to use an objective and fair way of measuring staff against each other . Or as brutally unfair as It can be use a first in last out policy .

 

[Butts]

Empathy for your fellow man goes a long way, but it can be a burden too. I've got a friend who was promoted to become the store manager for B&Q, he said he liked it, was well liked by the staff and enjoyed the job until the top brass came down and asked him too put names forward for redundancy.

He put his own name forward as in his words he 'didn't want to play politics'. I suppose that's why some managers develop a lack of empathy in case they have to start letting people go.

Unfortunately that comes with the territory
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I suppose , Ive never been in a situation as a manager where I had to recommend anybody for redundancies . But Id like to think if voluntary redundancies where not taken up I would have been able to use an objective and fair way of measuring staff against each other . Or as brutally unfair as It can be use a first in last out policy .

There is a set criteria of mostly objective measures used in any situation like this I have been involved in.

If you think that's bad wait till you get into Severance Agreements.

 

[43021HST]

If you think that's bad wait till you get into Severance Agreements.

Just had to Google what that was and from a brief skim read it sounds like quite a potentially nasty business for both parties.

 

[Butts]

Just had to Google what that was and from a brief skim read it sounds like quite a potentially nasty business for both parties.

Basically you get paid a wad of cash and agree to "sack yourself" and not go to a Tribunal.