Elizabeth line was it worth it?

[Blindtraveler]

When I very first heard about crossrail my immediate thought was excessive duplication. Very shortly afterwards though when I realised the benefits it would have been so many places I've always backed it and always defended it. I was right to do so. Total game changer. A journey from for example the Medway towns to Heathrow airport that would previously have involved to changes through London terminals with suitcases + the tube can now be done with only one change at abbeywood, ok so it's a slow journey with no USB charging points or 4G signal in tunnels but it still cutting down majorly on the hassle factor. I'd like to see one of the Thameslink paths per hour through Dartford Gravesend and into the Medway towns replaced by an Elizabeth line service which would then into the core network and and run to Heathrow or reading but this is something for the future when we are fine tuning the service. In short it is a complete game changer and 1 that I'm already enjoying a lot

 

[Starmill]

In 10 years time virtually nobody will question the investment. just like the channel tunnel. A big YES from me.

To be fair the Channel Tunnel's revolutionary effects were really in the freight market. The passenger rail service was a real slow burn and currently faces some serious headwinds. The Crossrail project has delivered something much more robust in terms of the market need so I think it will probably be seen as more effective than the Tunnel.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

To be fair the Channel Tunnel's revolutionary effects were really in the freight market. The passenger rail service was a real slow burn and currently faces some serious headwinds. The Crossrail project has delivered something much more robust in terms of the market need so I think it will probably be seen as more effective than the Tunnel.

Agreed. Crossrail definitely worth it.

 

[Basil Jet]

So they've built a brand new railway from Abbey Wood to Stepney which could carry 24tph, but will only ever carry half that. That's my beef.

We need a 12tph "Le Shuttle" carrying lorries from Plumstead to Silvertown as a replacement for the Woolwich Ferry.

 

[AM9]

When I very first heard about crossrail my immediate thought was excessive duplication. Very shortly afterwards though when I realised the benefits it would have been so many places I've always backed it and always defended it. I was right to do so. Total game changer. A journey from for example the Medway towns to Heathrow airport that would previously have involved to changes through London terminals with suitcases + the tube can now be done with only one change at abbeywood, ok so it's a slow journey with no USB charging points or 4G signal in tunnels but it still cutting down majorly on the hassle factor. I'd like to see one of the Thameslink paths per hour through Dartford Gravesend and into the Medway towns replaced by an Elizabeth line service which would then into the core network and and run to Heathrow or reading but this is something for the future when we are fine tuning the service. In short it is a complete game changer and 1 that I'm already enjoying a lot

That will never happen unless there is widespread conversion of the North Kent lines to 25kV OLE. It would also be another destination, likely to affect the smooth running of the line.

 

[kevin_roche]

I'm not a Londoner but I think Crossrail is a really great innovation and will make travel from areas like Woolwich much easier. It probably should have happened a long time ago, though maybe the technology wasn't quite ready before. Was it worth the final cost? Maybe. I think the people managing the project should have realised that the train and signalling system was too complex and not attempted to compress the system testing into a short period in the end.

I'm hoping that the problems that emerged won't delay further Crossrail projects such as Crossrail 2 and a possible extension to Ebbsfleet. I think the Government will have missed an opportunity if they are not able to learn from what went wrong and make use of that on other projects. I am also concerned that issues with tunnelling on Crossrail may have resulted in the wrong judgement when deciding on the new HS2 station in Manchester where it appears that an underground station would be more efficient and offer better support for NPR.

 

[cle]

An extension to Dartford and Ebbsfleet/Gravesend is still an aspiration - but there's no money and the 'how' isn't fully clear yet.

The ideal would be four tracking from Abbey Wood to Dartford - with only loopers out of Cannon St, and Crossrail owning all service east of Dartford on its own AC pair. Sidcup/Bexleyheath would end at Dartford. It's messy though.

Another option is to end SE at Abbey Wood and swap them over. Shoes or wires.

 

[306024]

Idle curiosity, but for whom is it an aspiration? TfL, or just various lobby groups?

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We need a 12tph "Le Shuttle" carrying lorries from Plumstead to Silvertown as a replacement for the Woolwich Ferry.

Best idea on here for months

 

[bramling]

Well, yes, but that wasn’t the thrust of your post. I’m sure the team building Crossrail would have been keen, in 2010, what they should do differently, based on your valuable experience.



I’m correcting you. The tunnelling was late. The stations were late (very). Signalling was an issue, yes. But not the prime cause.






so it’s a huge waste of capacity having two branches in the east, which was a waste of money, but there need to be more branches in the west?

I have always wondered if the junction at Stepney Green may in time prove to be just slightly too near to Central London, a lesson learned by the Bakerloo Line. Of course Crossrail is significantly more capacious than the Bakerloo ever was, so that may mitigate this potential issue somewhat.

As for the Paddington terminators, I’m not sure where else, besides Old Oak when the time comes, the trains could go. I’m not convinced the benefits of Tring justify the costs, and I can’t see there ever being the need for the extra capacity on the High Wycombe axis. Just one of those things really, good to have a bit of surplus capacity for once.

 

[JonathanH]

I’m not convinced the benefits of Tring justify the costs

Not to mention the difficulty of making a connection to the WCML work out if the junction is west of Old Oak Common. I suspect a junction for the WCML would have needed to be further east so that the junction could be east of Wembley Central.

I’m not sure where else, besides Old Oak when the time comes, the trains could go.

They don't need to go anywhere if the loadings at Old Oak Common are sufficient to use their capacity. The issue with the southern end of the Bakerloo line is that Waterloo doesn't fill all of its capacity.

 

[bramling]

Not to mention the difficulty of making a connection to the WCML work out if the junction is west of Old Oak Common. I suspect a junction for the WCML would have needed to be further east so that the junction could be east of Wembley Central.


They don't need to go anywhere if the loadings at Old Oak Common are sufficient to use their capacity. The issue with the southern end of the Bakerloo line is that Waterloo doesn't fill all of its capacity.

I suspect the other poster does have a point that Old Oak probably isn’t going to fill up that capacity fully. There will of course still be people arriving at Paddington on GWR services, and no doubt some level of interchange off the Bakerloo and H&C lines. I don’t think it’s an issue worth worrying too much about, though on paper yes it is probably a little wasteful.

 

[JonathanH]

Something has gone awry this afternoon. Currently four clas 345s in the high numbered platforms at Liverpool Street. Not sure what the contingency plan would be if Greater Anglia were operating a full service.

 

[Jamiescott1]

One thing I've noticed this past week on the EL line is how cold the trains are.
Alot colder than tube trains which also have a lot of doors

 

[AM9]

One thing I've noticed this past week on the EL line is how cold the trains are.
Alot colder than tube trains which also have a lot of doors

Tube trains don't have any air conditioning, instead, they are heated by tunnels that contain the heat of over 100 years of electric trains running through them for 100 years.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Tube trains don't have any air conditioning, instead, they are heated by tunnels that contain the heat of over 100 years of electric trains running through them for 100 years.

Even on the open air sections the trains are freezing

 

[AM9]

Even on the open air sections the trains are freezing

Aside from the point that high density frequently stopping trains should have internal temperatures that are compatible with the clothing that passengers board are wearing, the fabric of tube trains gets a regular roasting of between 40% and 100% during each journey.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

To be fair the Channel Tunnel's revolutionary effects were really in the freight market.

The roll on / roll off road freight traffic confined to the tunnel only.

I think there were something like 36 paths a day "dedicated" to the main line "BR" and SNCF freight, which have never met anything like their potential. As low as single figures per day seem to be the norm

 

[Bald Rick]

One thing I've noticed this past week on the EL line is how cold the trains are.

The weather this week has been a bit, err, cold.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

The weather this week has been a bit, err, cold.

I think that's it. Even the Central Line trains, in my experience the hottest of them all, have not been especially warm this week.

 

[AM9]

I think that's it. Even the Central Line trains, in my experience the hottest of them all, have not been especially warm this week.

Interesting that you have quoted the Central line trains, the excess heat definitely comes from 120 years of running through the core tunnels, despite the fact that the majority of the running is above ground.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Interesting that you have quoted the Central line trains, the excess heat definitely comes from 120 years of running through the core tunnels, despite the fact that the majority of the running is above ground.

I've always assumed that the Central Line is pretty deep in central London, and that much of the heat derives from that. For example, look at the length of the escalators at Holborn.

In normal temperatures, east (actually north) bound trains emerging from tunnels at Stratford where the platforms are above ground level, are uncomfortably hot. When the doors open, the heat does not escape(!) and the trains remain hot for a couple more stations.

 

[HSTEd]

I've always assumed that the Central Line is pretty deep in central London, and that much of the heat derives from that. For example, look at the length of the escalators at Holborn.

No, its not really deep enough for any serious geothermal heating effects.

Indeed, I believe when the tube first opened it was marketed as being comfortably cool on hot days!

 

[AM9]

I've always assumed that the Central Line is pretty deep in central London, and that much of the heat derives from that. For example, look at the length of the escalators at Holborn.

In normal temperatures, east (actually north) bound trains emerging from tunnels at Stratford where the platforms are above ground level, are uncomfortably hot. When the doors open, the heat does not escape(!) and the trains remain hot for a couple more stations.

The Central line is one of the oldest tube lines and has been running in the original tunnels between Liverpool St and the White City portal (a distance of just under 11km) continuously since 1912, - that's 110 years of heat being absorbed by the surrounding clay. Currently, the oldest, most heavily used part of the system has temperatures as high as 26 deg C, 12 deg C higher than when it was built. This means that the exterior of the trains is heated to that of a warm summer day.
The line is not particularly deep, it is crossed by the Northern (twice), Piccadilly, Jubilee, Bakerloo & Victoria, and all but the Bakerloo/Victoria at Oxford Circus pass below the Central line. All the tube lines are deep enough for the heat to remain trapped, hence the 12 deg C build up.
Trains surfacing at to stop at Stratford are out of the tunnels for leass than 2 minutes, and the heat that they contain is embedded in the bodywork, the sub-floor equipment, bogies and wheels. Thus when they dive back underground heading for Leyton, there is no preception of cooling. Even when the train arrives at Epping or Hainault, turns round and returns at the tunnels, that is only 45-50 minuites later, and within 5 minutes in the tube system, it will be back to the temperature that it had when surfacing eastbound at Stratford. So apart from overnight, and during servicing, the trains rarely fall below the temperature of a normal summer's day.

 

[To the trains]

Most heat on the tube comes from the trains and the braking, and the problem being that on older lines, that has accumulated over more than a century in some sections. Trains also get very hot when the hot sun beams down on them in above ground sections, and then that heat gets carried into the tunnel

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The EL is absolutely worth every last penny. If you built it like a tube line, with tube level capacity, it would not stand the test of time. Even if it has excess capacity for now, it won't forever, and this sort of very short sighted thinking is not of any benefit. The London sewers were built to have way more capacity than was ever needed in Victorian times, an instance of a rarity known as thinking ahead. On key infrastructure projects like this, it doesn't pay to cheap out!

 

[AM9]

Most heat on the tube comes from the trains and the braking, and the problem being that on older lines, that has accumulated over more than a century in some sections. Trains also get very hot when the hot sun beams down on them in above ground sections, and then that heat gets carried into the tunnel

Although the 2009 does, and 2024 stock will, use regen braking, converting the kinetic energy back into usable power when braking for other trains.

The EL is absolutely worth every last penny. If you built it like a tube line, with tube level capacity, it would not stand the test of time. Even if it has excess capacity for now, it won't forever, and this sort of very short sighted thinking is not of any benefit. The London sewers were built to have way more capacity than was ever needed in Victorian times, an instance of a rarity known as thinking ahead. On key infrastructure projects like this, it doesn't pay to cheap out!

Fortunately, the London administration and businesses that contributed the majority of the funds for Crossrail also thouight ahead, so they now have a key EW rail route through the city to support growth over the next 100 years.