ECML Timetable "Improvements"

[Donny Dave]

As the details are scattered through several threads, I'll start a dedicated thread here. All this post is, is my opinions on how each station will benefit from the new timetable.

• Stevenage - Gets 1 train an hour to/from Leeds, so change at Doncaster or Leeds for services to York and beyond.
• Peterborough - 3 Trains an hour. 1 to Leeds, 1 to York/Lincoln and 1 to Newcastle. So change at York or Newcastle for services further North.
• Grantham - 1 Train to Harrogate or Lincoln an hour and 1 to Leeds. Change at Doncaster and York for Darlington and beyond.
• Newark - 1 train to Harrogate or Lincoln an hour, and 1 to Leeds. Change at Leeds or York for the North.
• Retford - 1 train every 2 hours to Harrogate, Change at Doncaster for Leeds, or York for the North.
• Doncaster - 2 Trains an hour to Leeds, and an hourly service to Harrogate. Change at York (and possibly Newcastle) for the North.
• Northallerton - As thing stand in the proposed timetable, no NXEC services will call here.
• Darlington - Half hourly to Newcastle, with 1 train an hour continuing to Scotland
• Durham - Hourly to Newcastle. Change there for Scotland.

As you can see, it is a great improvement :? for the intermediate stations along the ECML.

Note. I am aware that some Newcastle service will be extended to Scotland, and other calling points will possibly be inserted, but that is as things stand at the minute.

 

[richa2002]

When will this be implemented? It would appear that a bit too much changing is required if you want to go north of York from any of the lesser main stations such as Stevenage, Grantham, Newark, Doncaster. Changing for changes sake in my opinion, the current TT works quite nicely.

 

[Nym]

wouldn't a cascade calling system north of Pbrouh work better?

 

[me123]

TBH, I like the idea of the lesser stations having a less freqeuent service to NCL and, in particular, Scotland as it will speed up journeys for those of us with long distances to travel to London, but I don't see why intermediate stations, particularly those between Doncaster and Peterbrough inclusive, don't get any service. And, of course, NOrthallerton is getting totally axed for some reason!

I think the longer services should at least call at PBO and/or Doncaster to provide connections opening up much more possibility for transfer than is proposed and allow services for NCL to call at Northallerton.

At least under the new TT, most passengers only really need 1 change. I hope it doesn't become worse than that.

 

[Nym]

I'd just stick with a rotation system myself, if this would work...?

2tph to LDS
1tph to NCL
1tph to EDB via NCL and beyond
1tph to Harrogate/Lincoln

1 tph LDS services calling all stations to LDS via DON
1 tph LDS calling at PBO, DON, Wakfeild, LDS (the extentions to Bradford Skipton etc... and HST services (less accelaration))
NCL Services run PBO, Doncaster, YRK, (?Northallerton somtimes), Darlo, Durham, Newcastle
EDB Services run fast to York, then Fast to Newcastle, (?Darlo/Durham alternating), then stations to EDB
1tp2h Lincoln via PBO, calling PBO, Sleaford, Lincoln Central, (possibly shove it through to Donny, York) ie. Doncaster via Lincoln
1tp2h Harrogate, Semi Fast... eg. PBO, Grantham, Retford, Doncaster, York, etc. Harrogate

Could that work?

Then it leaves room for HT to run 1tp2h and GC to run 1tp2h and still have 6tph fasts out of LKX

 

[djw1981]

As the details are scattered through several threads, I'll start a dedicated thread here. All this post is, is my opinions on how each station will benefit from the new timetable.

• Stevenage - Gets 1 train an hour to/from Leeds, so change at Doncaster or Leeds for services to York and beyond.
• Peterborough - 3 Trains an hour. 1 to Leeds, 1 to York/Lincoln and 1 to Newcastle. So change at York or Newcastle for services further North.
• Grantham - 1 Train to Harrogate or Lincoln an hour and 1 to Leeds. Change at Doncaster and York for Darlington and beyond.
• Newark - 1 train to Harrogate or Lincoln an hour, and 1 to Leeds. Change at Leeds or York for the North.
• Retford - 1 train every 2 hours to Harrogate, Change at Doncaster for Leeds, or York for the North.
• Doncaster - 2 Trains an hour to Leeds, and an hourly service to Harrogate. Change at York (and possibly Newcastle) for the North.
• Northallerton - As thing stand in the proposed timetable, no NXEC services will call here.
• Darlington - Half hourly to Newcastle, with 1 train an hour continuing to Scotland
• Durham - Hourly to Newcastle. Change there for Scotland.

As you can see, it is a great improvement :? for the intermediate stations along the ECML.

Note. I am aware that some Newcastle service will be extended to Scotland, and other calling points will possibly be inserted, but that is as things stand at the minute.

This does need to be read in conjunction with other operators. Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle also see an hourly XC service to Scotland, which is mostly Doncaster/Leeds-York-Darlington-Durham-Newcastle. There are also TPE service between Darlington, Durham, Newcastle which provide additional journeys into Newcastle for the change of train to Scotland./London.

Likewise IIRC, FCC provide journeys from Stevenage to Peterborough, thus the real number of connections is greater than the 1 listed. the main losers are Retford and Grantham , but passenegr numbers may mean that these are not busy enough to justify more calls.

IF NX is to take on the airlines from Edinburgh / NorthEast, as it seems DfT want them to (and these business people are the ones likely to help pay the £1bn premium) then they need to be fast intercity. Also any slow NXEC service between York and London at certain times of day will lose passengers to the non-stop GC service. Since NR insist that NX run a clockface timetable, that means that all services around the OA slot must run fast to York. Ditto Doncaster for HT.

 

[Tom B]

... hang on, but HT currently call at Retford & Stevenage don't they?

I use HT often to get to Retford, as NEEC do not provide a decent service between Doncaster & Retford - at least the HT service has a vauge excuse for a connection with the Northern services. However, if HT decide they're going to run non-stop to Doncaster, I think I'll stop using the train via Retford and take the car next time I travel to Gainsborough/Lincoln...

I also don't agree with the fact that they seem intent on removing services between Doncaster and Scotland. How the heck do they expect people to use them if they try to make it more difficult?

 

[djw1981]

The HT stopping pattern is not covered in this document IIRC. They don't plan to chsange their stops, and in fact want to add Stevenage.

 

[me123]

It would need more stock, but I think it should be:

xx00, to GLC. Calling at PBO, Donny, York, intermediates to NCL, intermediates to EDB, MTH, GLC. Alternate "intermediates". Some terminate EDB
xx10ish to Leeds, some fast stopping pattern, extended as necessary. (PBO, Donny, Wakefield?)
xx20ish to York calling all to York.
xx30 to EDB Fast; York, NCL, EDB and some to stations North. Services to EDB can call more often.
xx35 Local to Leeds, all stops.

Just a rough idea. With the dawn of ICE, the 91s won't have anywhere to go so they can be retained to provide additional services to the like of Leeds and Glasgow, which are under the wires, as current stocks don't allow for an hourly service to GLC I wouldn't think.

This would allow an hourly service to GLC, at least hourly to all intermediates between York and KGX, retain services to Scotland for PBO and DON passengers, and allow the longer Aberdeen and Inverness services to have a faster run to EDB. Journeys to EDB would be very competative with an hourly fast service.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

interesting, especially as I used to live near Northallerton, and used GNER on several occasions to get to London. I had heard a rumour that NXEC wanted more stops at Northallerton, seeing as GC were picking up a fair few pax there. Looks like the rumours were wrong! Oh well, all the more for GC!

 

[Galaxy]

First Hull Trains intend to be Brough, Howden, Selby, Doncaster, Retford, Grantham, Stevenage and London King's Cross for all their services.

 

[paul1609]

Personally i think the changes are for the good. London to Scotland services on both the E & WCML have had far too many stops inserted in them to be competitive with air. On the ECML I think London to Scotland Services should stop at a maximum of 1 station in Yorkshire and those on the WCML 1 station in Lancashire not the current 3 or 4 on some services.

 

[Metroland]

I agree, although practically speaking there's not much difference now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7365329.stm

 

[me123]

My Dad takes the train GLC-EUS and sometimes flies to Luton. He says flying is 30 minutes faster, but still prefers the train: flying's just too much hastle and he can't use his mobile phone.

Of course, Mancunians really do have a choice. It's probably quicker for them to train than to fly due to the frequencies, and the hastle at two large airports.

 

[paul1609]

I agree, although practically speaking there's not much difference now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7365329.stm

I think the reality is though not many people live in the Scottish Parliament or will be leaving there at 5 in the morning. Particularly with people leaving from the South they are likely to have a long trek to the rail terminal from home. Certainly from most locations South of the Thames in London, (due to its rail links) Gatwick is just as convient as Kings Cross or Euston.
By the time you've got down to the South Coast Day trips to Scotland arent really practicable by rail but easily possible by air.

 

[Metroland]

Yep, but if we're talking business travellers, who pay the big fares, it's city-city that is important and not many people do day trips to Scotland from the South coast - even for business.

Incidentally the ECML was 1/2 hour quicker in BR days, so going by that, the guy would have beaten the plane.

Further more, I'd actually say by leaving at 5 in the morning gives significant advantage in getting to Edinburgh airport. The point still stands, London-Edinburgh or Glasgow is not that much different, and south of there, most of the time it's quicker when everything is taken into account. This country is much to small for air travel to ever become a great relevance internally, and does little to serve people living in the mid-points, which is why I do not support it over these sorts of distances but support it over that distance used in moderation.

 

[me123]

This country is much to small for air travel to ever become a great relevance internally, and does little to serve people living in the mid-points, which is why I do not support it over these sorts of distances but support it over that distance used in moderation.

Beleive it or not, air is more popular than rail amongst the people I know anyway (but they're all private school snobs who only purchase SORs or FORs).

Actually, use on moderation is what I want to see. My dad, mentioned earlier, sometimes has to fly. His job takes him all over the country quite literally and sometimes flying is the better option because ATM an early enough train service GLC-EUS doesn't exist, and flying from ABD is much faster than NXEC's 3tpd. What I don't understand is people who fly to Birmingham, Manchester and places that have good rail links already. Shame on them!

I would like to see more people travel by rail for leisure and here's what they should do IMO: market the train as part of the holiday/day out. When we travel abroad with the school, half the fun is getting there as we drive to the ferry terminal in Hull and use the overnight ferry. A trip by plane violates your privacy with the necessary but annoying security checks. A trip by train is clearly easier and more fun for the kids, and more relaxing for the adults! More family discounts could help inducing more poeple to travel by rail.

I also think that running ABD and INV services calling only at NCL, YRK and KGX south of EDB will prove popular amongst many people.

 

[Metroland]

Well next year we get the West coast very high level frequency timetable, 3 tph to Manchester and Birmingham and hourly to Glasgow, all with journey time improvements.

With rising oil prices, taxes and the open skies agreement many of these air services are likely to disappear as they are marginal at best. Indeed, BA connect was unprofitable.

Liverpool to London has been withdrawn, Manchester-London cut back, Leeds/Durham to London on the point of being withdrawn and there's talk of Newcastle to London being withdrawn.

 

[me123]

I personally look forward to the improvements, that see Glasgow getting a similar rail service to EDB when it comes to London. In particular, the 4am service ex Glasgow will make daytrips and even business trips possible without the use of the plane; and not just from Scotland. I can see the new service reducing planes to London (unless induced demand kicks in big-time).

easyJet are even beginning to expand to International destinations out of Glasgow, which suggests they're giving in to trains for their many domestic routes out of the city (3 London airports, Bristol etc.) If the ECML provides faster services, Glasgow and Edinburgh-London could be nearly obliterated from the airline market if the train companies invest in adverising.

 

[paul1609]

Yep, but if we're talking business travellers, who pay the big fares, it's city-city that is important and not many people do day trips to Scotland from the South coast - even for business.

Incidentally the ECML was 1/2 hour quicker in BR days, so going by that, the guy would have beaten the plane.

Further more, I'd actually say by leaving at 5 in the morning gives significant advantage in getting to Edinburgh airport. The point still stands, London-Edinburgh or Glasgow is not that much different, and south of there, most of the time it's quicker when everything is taken into account. This country is much to small for air travel to ever become a great relevance internally, and does little to serve people living in the mid-points, which is why I do not support it over these sorts of distances but support it over that distance used in moderation.

I dont think business actually pays the big fares anymore. I normally fly on flybe from Southampton to Glasgow and the planes are full of business travellers in the morning.
The price on my ticket usually booked 7 days in advance direct with flybe is in the mid range that youd expect to pay on their website. Ironically my connection from Southampton Central to Airport Parkway was the XC service to Edinburgh. I worked out that the train was leaving Reading I was taking off. As it was approaching Birmingham NS I was at Glasgow Airport. The layover there was so long that I had arrived at my destination by Taxi before it left.

I think that if you exclude the financial and service sectors most business destinations are unlikely to be city centre anymore.

By the time my late afternoon plane was taking off back to Southampton the XC service from Bournemouth is just approaching Waverley.

By the way my leisure trips would normally be done on the sleeper as I like to sup some wine in the lounge car on the departure from london and wake up to breakfast at Crianlarich
Especially now the quiet and super smooth 67s power the service.

 

[Donny Dave]

Incidentally the ECML was 1/2 hour quicker in BR days, so going by that, the guy would have beaten the plane.

I don't know which year your quoting from for the BR era, but compared to 1981 (the only year I have figures for), then there is a big decrease in journey times now compared to then. I've selected the 4 fastest times between London KX and Edinburgh from 1981 and the current timetable for comparison.

1981. (All HST)

4h 43m, calling at Newcastle only.
4h 48m, calling at Darlington and Newcastle.
4h 49m, calling at Darlington and Newcastle.
5h 03m, calling at York, Darlington, Newcastle and Berwick-upon-Tweed.
All other London - Edinburgh services were 5h 07m or longer.

2008. (Mix of HST and cl91+mark 4s)

4h 13m, calling at York, Newcastle and Berwick-upon-Tweed.
4h 20m, calling at Peterborough, York, Darlington and Newcastle.
4h 23m, calling at Peterborough, York and Newcastle.
4h 24m, calling at Doncaster, York, Darlington and Newcastle.
Most other London - Edinburgh services are booked for between 4h 25m and 4h 40m, with only a couple (which stop at a lot of stations) taking 5 hours.

So, even with 2 more stops, the fastest service today is still 30 minutes quicker than in 1981, and without making the line 125mph all the way, there isn't much scope for decreasing journey times anymore.

 

[Metroland]

Around 1990 after electrification the ECML was around 4 hours London-Edinburgh on the fastest train.