East West Rail - possible future service patterns?

[Bletchleyite]

I do think a second Marston service, even to Bletchley (getting it to 2tph) might give a better sense of the suppressed and potential usage.

Unreliability has driven more people away than lack of frequency I reckon, plus the need to change to get to MKC. That's why I favour the Denbigh North Chord idea allowing a direct MKC service, but they also need to get the staff situation sorted so it isn't canned as often, as on an hourly service, like Northern, this makes it rather useless at times.

That said touch wood it has had a run of reasonable reliability in the past few weeks with relatively few delays and cancellations.

 

[Robin Edwards]

Unreliability has driven more people away than lack of frequency I reckon, plus the need to change to get to MKC.

Exactly this. Anyone who has tried to use this line over past 50 years as I have will recount stories of cancelled or closure. It's no wonder it's not used very much, especially as neither Bedford nor Bletchley have much to offer (Bletchley Park is good btw!) other than connections to somewhere else!

 

[William3000]

Issue is that for many of these areas the railway is all they have. Unless a bus service can be implemented then I’m pretty sure they will still be forced to run trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==


We also should have a Milton Keynes - Gatwick Airport through service via Oxford & Reading.

Would it not be quicker to go from Bletchley to Bedford and then get the Thameslink?

 

[Mgameing123]

Would it not be quicker to go from Bletchley to Bedford and then get the Thameslink?

Well it’s more for trips like Milton Keynes - Reading and Oxford to Gatwick Airport.

 

[William3000]

Well it’s more for trips like Milton Keynes - Reading and Oxford to Gatwick Airport.

Reading involves just a single change at Farringdon. I take your point but it does seem quite circuitous.

 

[HST43257]

Well it’s more for trips like Milton Keynes - Reading and Oxford to Gatwick Airport.

Too much to combine imo, shared for only an Oxford to Reading section.

I’m all for a MKC-RDG hourly service but you’re overcomplicating it if you put it with the Gatwick section

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly this. Anyone who has tried to use this line over past 50 years as I have will recount stories of cancelled or closure. It's no wonder it's not used very much, especially as neither Bedford nor Bletchley have much to offer (Bletchley Park is good btw!) other than connections to somewhere else!

A reasonable number of schoolchildren use it, but other than that I think the busiest it has been was when there was a Primark in Bedford but none in MK, popular (due to its low prices) with teens and young adults who are also the least likely people to own cars. As there's now one in the Stadium retail park that usage has dropped off again.

I think if it ran to MKC there would be a reasonable level of commuter use, but most commuters won't accept the change of trains that is presently required.

 

[InTheEastMids]

We also should have a Milton Keynes - Gatwick Airport through service via Oxford & Reading.

Well it’s more for trips like Milton Keynes - Reading and Oxford to Gatwick Airport.

Too much to combine imo, shared for only an Oxford to Reading section.

Not an expert but having a single service trying to get through Oxford, Reading, Guildford and onto the Brighton Line without picking up and transmitting delays around the network feels like a tall order.
Not sure on passenger demand for each sub-route, but there could be mismatch between capacity and demand too.

I do see the point of longer distance services using EWR - Network Rail published something on this a while back.
However, I think the worst thing that could be done is to emulate the XC Birmingham-Stansted service that has a typically 3-car DMU trundle around the country duplicating a journey that's much faster by another route, because it's really several local services all bolted together. I'd be concerned about trying to turn a local EWR commuter-oriented service calling at Winslow, Ridgmont etc into a long-distance inter-regional/inter-city service. So I think something like Bristol-Cambridge needs to be looked at, but "as well as", rather than "extensions to" the proposed services.

Challenge is probably that if EWR hasn't been specc'ed for it, it'll take 10+ years of consultants reports, business cases and fiddling with the infrastructure to make it happen...

 

[cle]

A reasonable number of schoolchildren use it, but other than that I think the busiest it has been was when there was a Primark in Bedford but none in MK, popular (due to its low prices) with teens and young adults who are also the least likely people to own cars. As there's now one in the Stadium retail park that usage has dropped off again.

I think if it ran to MKC there would be a reasonable level of commuter use, but most commuters won't accept the change of trains that is presently required.

Appreciating MK is the nearest game in town - I do think having a fairly reliable 2tph would make all the difference. History has shown us that with reopenings, service increases and such.

Having direct access to Bicester and Oxford might be of interest, and 2tph to Bletchley for both MKC and London services (depending which end of the line you're at, re London) - I think a second service could be semi-fast and then on to Oxford, normal EWR calls - which is what will become the EWR Bedford-Oxford anyway. But if it has to have more stops now, better to start it up than not run anything. And build the interest and awareness back.

Also as Wixams and the Theme Park are happening, there is more purpose to running better services regardless. I'm sure the developers would expedite things, and Amazon would be happy too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The theme park probably adds another reason to run to MKC - Milton Keynes has massive hotel capacity that is underused on weekends as it's not a tourist destination bar in Silverstone week. Even ignoring the others there are something like 6 Premier Inns, 3 of which are in the centre, though to be fair 2 (Furzton and Caldecotte) are probably as easy to taxi or (fairly long) walk to/from Bletchley as MKC. Willen is easier reached from MKC but a bit far to walk (though if you do it's probably one of the most interesting and scenic walks possible within MK).

 

[cle]

It would still be about half an hour. May as well stay at Luton airport - easier by train.

I’m sure there will be some, and maybe in Bedford proper - which will get a hospitality boost no doubt. But I expect many more will be day trippers from London.

 

[CHobbs]

Not sure I share your optimism. Some of those stations are very poorly used.

Agree! Plus the only traffic on the Bletchley to Bedford route is mainly school children in the mornings and afternoons. The X4 bus is quicker for travel between MK and Bedford. The intermediate stations are little used- hate to generalise, but they are relatively wealthy places where people don’t use public transport! Not sure the train would be missed . Keep Woburn Sands and Kempston Hardwick for the new Theme park

 

[Mgameing123]

Agree! Plus the only traffic on the Bletchley to Bedford route is mainly school children in the mornings and afternoons. The X4 bus is quicker for travel between MK and Bedford. The intermediate stations are little used- hate to generalise, but they are relatively wealthy places where people don’t use public transport! Not sure the train would be missed . Keep Woburn Sands and Kempston Hardwick for the new Theme park

Isn't it typically wealthy people who take the train and poor people who take the bus?

 

[RT4038]

Isn't it typically wealthy people who take the train and poor people who take the bus?

For local journeys, the wealthy typically use their car whether a train is available or not.

 

[A S Leib]

For local journeys, the wealthy typically use their car whether a train is available or not.

I wonder how many first class season tickets are sold for e.g. Durham to Newcastle (£32 per week for TPE standard, £40 for any standard, £72 for any First); in that case, I suspect it would be relatively easy to get a higher value in drinks and snacks from the lounge at Newcastle than the price difference between standard and first. That doesn't really apply to East West Rail's area though.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Agree! Plus the only traffic on the Bletchley to Bedford route is mainly school children in the mornings and afternoons. The X4 bus is quicker for travel between MK and Bedford. The intermediate stations are little used- hate to generalise, but they are relatively wealthy places where people don’t use public transport! Not sure the train would be missed . Keep Woburn Sands and Kempston Hardwick for the new Theme park

I can well believe this to be true - but that, as others have pointed out earlier - is v much because the service has been so badly (not) provided for so many years.

If a reliable service were to be provided, the numbers would surely go up. Why, even some who have abandoned the train might even return.

 

[cle]

I think we have to try a second TPH (or running the first!) - and see what that does to rail uptake. Spoiler - it will increase demand and usage and goodwill, as it does everywhere else. And a paint job on the unit, or newer stock - does wonders too.

And sure enough you'll have feeders into fast London services on both ends, and many tph into MKC.

And that second TPH should eventually be extended to Oxford, and trial limited stops on MV.

 

[CHobbs]

Isn't it typically wealthy people who take the train and poor people who take the bus?

No, wealthy people don’t use public transport particularly at all, unless going to London.

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Would it not be quicker to go from Bletchley to Bedford and then get the Thameslink?

No. Bletchley to Bedford takes 45 minutes plus to do 14 miles, you could be in London already in that time from Bletchley on your way to Gatwick

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2025 ==

Extending the 2ph MKC-Oxford trains to Swindon, with 1ph then continuing further to Bristol in place of the GWR service, would be ideal in terms of connections. Pathing along the mainline would be difficult though

I’d imagine it would be quicker via London Terminals

 

[Falcon1200]

No, wealthy people don’t use public transport particularly at all, unless going to London.

To give just two examples from personal experience, the number of people travelling First Class on Edinburgh and Glasgow/Inverness and Scotland/Manchester Airport services would somewhat contradict that statement.

 

[vuzzeho]

No, wealthy people don’t use public transport particularly at all, unless going to London.

That's not even a little bit true.

 

[I'm here now]

No, wealthy people don’t use public transport particularly at all, unless going to London.

Not really, there’s just less wealthy people than normal people. Wealth concentration, not dispersal.

 

[The Ham]

Whilst I get that creating liner roots don't always help with the risk of delays, there maybe a case for providing (say) 4tpd (about 0.25tph) which run some of the longer routes mentioned.

Two reasons, firstly that would probably provide enough capacity for those wanting to make such a trip (and in the case of travel between offices there's likely to be a bit of flexibility in the timings people are willing to make).

Secondly, one people know that there's direct trains, as long as the frequencies are reasonable (i.e. each leg is at least 2tph), then more people would be willing to use the non direct services.

Such a low level of frequency doesn't exclude the potential for increasing frequencies if demand was enough to justify it.

On a practical basis, you'd potentially want to set the frequency based on using one unit to run all the services, so if there's a delay you can just turn the unit back early.or it only impact the one service rather than delaying lots of inter worked services.

 

[MatthewHutton]

I’d imagine it would be quicker via London Terminals

People really like direct trains and avoiding London. Especially with luggage.

If you look at the region-region data it is pretty clear that people don’t like changing trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2025 ==

Whilst I get that creating liner roots don't always help with the risk of delays, there maybe a case for providing (say) 4tpd (about 0.25tph) which run some of the longer routes mentioned.

Two reasons, firstly that would probably provide enough capacity for those wanting to make such a trip (and in the case of travel between offices there's likely to be a bit of flexibility in the timings people are willing to make).

Secondly, one people know that there's direct trains, as long as the frequencies are reasonable (i.e. each leg is at least 2tph), then more people would be willing to use the non direct services.

Such a low level of frequency doesn't exclude the potential for increasing frequencies if demand was enough to justify it.

On a practical basis, you'd potentially want to set the frequency based on using one unit to run all the services, so if there's a delay you can just turn the unit back early.or it only impact the one service rather than delaying lots of inter worked services.

If you can make it one train every 2 hours that is certainly a start for sure.

 

[JonathanH]

People really like direct trains and avoiding London. Especially with luggage.

Some people may really like direct trains but the reality is that most passengers happily travel across London if that is the quickest route. It isn't as if everyone travelling to London has a destination on the Euston Road or within walking distance.

 

[MatthewHutton]

Some people may really like direct trains but the reality is that most passengers happily travel across London if that is the quickest route. It isn't as if everyone travelling to London has a destination on the Euston Road or within walking distance.

The number of people who travel between the eastern region and the south eastern region is only 3.6 million - and that includes people going from West of London to East of London on the Elizabeth line and people going from the north Thameslink lines to destinations south of the river such as Gatwick airport.

Same with south east to North West/Yorkshire/North East. Difficult to see those passenger numbers aren’t mostly made up by people using direct Cross country services.

Most people drive.